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To think Kurt Cobain was ahead of his time (feminism, racism, homophobia)

218 replies

AllisoninWunderland · 18/09/2021 22:58

I’ve just been watching the documentary about him (man I loved him).

Aside from changing the face of music and fashion in the early 90s, aibu to think he was way ahead of his time in his views?

This is from the liner notes of their album “Incesticide,” they warned:

“If any of you in any way hate homosexuals, people of different color, or women, please do this one favor for us — leave us the f- alone! Don’t come to our shows and don’t buy our records.” The liner notes to their next album, “In Utero,” echoed that admonition: “If you’re a sexist, racist, homophobe or basically an ahole, don’t buy this CD. I don’t care if you like me, I hate you.”

He was an extremely sensitive man, highly tuned into ‘the under-dog’, a supporter of people of colour, women and the LGBTQ community.

What a waste 😢

OP posts:
RunningStrong · 19/09/2021 08:18

I was a teenager in the late 80s/early 90s. I knew lots of feminist young men. Whether they were really feminist or just knew the right things to say, I'm not so sure, but I don't think he was "ahead of his time" I think the progress we'd made has gone backwards since then.

Likewise racism. It was very "uncool" to be racist in the 90s, it's only recently with Brexit etc that it's become "OK" to spout racist views again.

VanGoSunflowers · 19/09/2021 08:36

@Wotwhywhen

Let's face it.

If a musician came out and declare that they hate gays, women and trans people, it'd be career suicide. Even Eminem had to back track and play a gig with Elton John to make up for some of the lyrics he used.

A few notes in the liner of an album, that the band probably didn't even see before it was presented to them, it's hardly a window into the actual real beliefs held by the band.
It's an easy thing to do, that causes no problems, but scores them a few points with certain demographics.
Same reason Sainsbury's and other business get all rainbows around pride time. Costs them nothing, scores them points with that demographic.

I don’t agree with this. I genuinely think that, when it comes to Nirvana, this sort of thing was done with complete sincerity.

Look at their 3rd studio album as an example In Utero was created and recorded in shockingly short amount of time and created to be almost an antithesis to Nevermind as they were troubled by the ‘frat bro’ following they seemed to have inherited after ‘Smells Like Teen Spirit’ was released. Cobain was tortured by the fact they may have seemed like sell-outs and purposely released an album that would be totally unpalatable to the likes of the people they hated.
Career suicide? Maybe/maybe not. They were pretty well established by then. We’ll never know if that album would have decreased their popularity as Cobain died shortly afterwards which was always going to increase their profile.
Was it a genius move? Absolutely.

Love that album. The only one that tops it IMO is the MTV unplugged album. That is a thing to behold - especially if you watch the full gig on DVD.
I’m digressing!

spudjulia · 19/09/2021 08:37

I remember at the time when Nirvana exploded, and they were really unhappy that the type of people they detested started listening to their music and coming to gigs. That's what I understood those messages to be about (and Kurt would say the same thing in interviews too). They were really pissed off that they were making music for the 'loners' and 'misfits' which was being appropriated by the Mai streamers who couldn't possibly understand the music.

Things did feel so much more progressive and tolerant back in the 90s. Possibly because I was submerged in the alternative culture? But it has felt like I've lived through a decline in tolerance. 80s and 90s as a child/teen/young adult where anything was accepted, then the rise of Brit pop and lad culture, sexist magazines. Glastonbury went from alternative to mainstream. Won't pretend grunge was anti-racist - sure there was that sentiment but the scene wasn't exactly representative of POC.

DrSbaitso · 19/09/2021 08:40

They were really pissed off that they were making music for the 'loners' and 'misfits' which was being appropriated by the Mai streamers who couldn't possibly understand the music.

They were pretty mainstream themselves after their breakthrough! Sounds as if they didn't understand the nature of art. You can't dictate who's allowed to like it or how people should react to it.

VanGoSunflowers · 19/09/2021 08:45

I’m tempted to order and read heavier than heaven… but can anyone tell me how much it is endorsed by Love?
She gives me the fucking creeps. I’m wary of anything she puts her name to…

VanGoSunflowers · 19/09/2021 08:47

@DrSbaitso

They were really pissed off that they were making music for the 'loners' and 'misfits' which was being appropriated by the Mai streamers who couldn't possibly understand the music.

They were pretty mainstream themselves after their breakthrough! Sounds as if they didn't understand the nature of art. You can't dictate who's allowed to like it or how people should react to it.

Which is what the poster actually said - or that’s how I read it. They became mainstream after SLTS and hated it. In Utero was the push back against that. So they could dictate to a point who they appealed to…
Tubbytenbums · 19/09/2021 08:52

At that time, there was a very important move called the Riot Grrrl movement. Headed by Kathleen Hanna and a few others . She is even the one who wrote the lyric 'smells like teen spirit' . She scrawled this on a wall but it said 'kurt smells like teen spirit'.
This movement was very important and was headed by women. It's worth recigniding that I think. Kurt maybe said the right things but his actions didn't tally.

Janaih · 19/09/2021 08:59

I remember buying the albums from our price at the time and thinking it was cool.
Most 90s indie kids were supporters of the anti nazi league.

Pinklioness · 19/09/2021 09:00

@PooWillyNameChange

Interesting so many here is saying 'standard for 90s' when this recently there was a great about Goves sexist/homophobic speeches in the early 90s and people in droves criticised that OP for holding him to a higher standard when "that was what it was like back then".

I was born in 1990...which is it MN?!

There are a lot of Tory handmaidens on MN for a start.

But also don't you think that the mastermind of Brexit lies couldn't stoop to a little bit of SM manipulation on a massive platform like MN?

Anyone who thinks it was widely socially acceptable to be that misogynistic and homophobic in the 90s has a v narrow and particular social circle.

MargotMoon · 19/09/2021 09:02

I think writing that stuff in his sleeve notes was great, but then again his favourite book was Perfume by Patrick Suskind which I read a couple of years ago and was appalled by how misogynist it is. But nobody's perfect (well, no man is perfect - I know a perfect woman or two Grin)

LyraSilvertongueBelacqua · 19/09/2021 09:02

@Geepee71 what's the Dave Grohl doc called please and where can I watch it? Thanks!

coodawoodashooda · 19/09/2021 09:03

@UmbilicusProfundus

It was the 90s, not the 50s.
Excellent. Exactly this.
RunningStrong · 19/09/2021 09:12

@trama

Absolutely. He would wear dresses and be fucking cool with it. He was a really excellent human with more than his fair share of demons.
Even David Beckham wore a skirt in the 90s Grin
alittleprivacy · 19/09/2021 09:28

I really do love Nirvana's music but Kurt was a narcissistic addict. And Nirvana didn't change music or do anything new with it. They just hit the mainstream with a sound that was basically a continuation of what The Pixies had been doing for years before. Which Kurt was, in fairness to him, very open about.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 19/09/2021 09:36

I was lucky enough to be in my teens and twenties for the grunge movement. Nirvana went mainstream because of Kurt's beauty and the sheer genius of Nevermind (which was written about Toni From Riot Grrrls not being that into him - she who left him in his bed smelling of her perfume, Teen Spirit).

A lot of grunge from that time hasn't aged well. A super, super trendy store in Brighton was very smug about playing Mudhoney's Superfuzz Bigmuff on vinyl when I went in but it's mostly crap with a few hooks in truth.

By all accounts, Kurt was a very disturbed person. I have seen many documentaries and read Heavier than Heaven but couldn't get through his diaries. Courtney has disclosed that she was diagnosed with autism as a child but is often painted as a villain.

As for Kurt being a feminist? Did he believe that women are equal? Maybe? How can anyone but Kurt know? What's true is that we are talking about a time prior to porn sites with their misogynistic, abusive content being commonly watched by teens with no experience of sex. Therefore, the attitudes of the late 80s and 90s towards sex were developing from what had passed in the 60s and 70s, with AIDS now bringing paranoia into the mix.

Kurt was part of the zeitgeist and his pro women attitude was common in men of the era. Sadly, due to the nasty porn, and the popularity of abusive music genres where women are described as bitches and hoes, we've taken a step backwards in recent years. I am guessing the OP is not a woman aged 40+ so Kurt's 90s attitudes seem like a breath of fresh air instead of a sad recollection of a less misogynistic era.

KaptainKaveman · 19/09/2021 09:41

@alittleprivacy

I really do love Nirvana's music but Kurt was a narcissistic addict. And Nirvana didn't change music or do anything new with it. They just hit the mainstream with a sound that was basically a continuation of what The Pixies had been doing for years before. Which Kurt was, in fairness to him, very open about.
yep, true.

OP in the 1970s there were loads of punk bands embracing a lot of the 'causes' you seem to think Kurt Cobain invented. I was into The Au-Pairs, Delta 5, The Raincoats (ex-Slits) and Gang of Four, among others. And as for being opposed to racism? - what do you think White Man in Hammersmith Palais is about? Hmm.

SunbathingDragon · 19/09/2021 09:42

Even Axl Rose has been known to perform concerts in dresses!

TrifleCat · 19/09/2021 09:44

How the fuck can you think someone who regularly assaulted his partner is in any way a feminist??

Don't put humans on a pedestal just because they made records you liked as a teenager

LucilleBluth · 19/09/2021 09:47

Are you very young OP? Go and look at the hippy movement, San Francisco in the 1960s and then move forward from there.

RunningStrong · 19/09/2021 09:56

@VanGoSunflowers

I’m tempted to order and read heavier than heaven… but can anyone tell me how much it is endorsed by Love? She gives me the fucking creeps. I’m wary of anything she puts her name to…
Isn't this misogyny at it's best? Cobain was a tortured soul whose actions can be excused. But Love, quite possibly his victim?
SleepOhHowIMissYou · 19/09/2021 09:59

King Buzzo from Melvins still wears his dresses when performing. Each one is designed by his artist wife.

If you fancy seeing the "Godfathers of Grunge", Melvins still tour (we last saw them in 2019) and, along with the aforementioned Pixies, they were the inspiration for Nirvana who met in their rehearsal rooms and used the same drummer, Dale Crover.

Geepee71 · 19/09/2021 10:04

@lyrasilvertonguebelacque not sure sorry, he was chatting to dermot o'leary and it was on bbc 2 straight after When Nirvana visited Britain. Should be on iplayer.

VanGoSunflowers · 19/09/2021 10:13

Isn't this misogyny at it's best? Cobain was a tortured soul whose actions can be excused. But Love, quite possibly his victim?

No, it isn’t. You can dislike certain women and not be a misogynist. Quite simple, I get an incredibly bad and creepy vibe from her. We have no way of knowing for sure who was the victim in that relationship. Maybe they both were. But mine is a very physical reaction.

Itreallytiedtheroomtogether · 19/09/2021 10:14

@TrifleCat

How the fuck can you think someone who regularly assaulted his partner is in any way a feminist??

Don't put humans on a pedestal just because they made records you liked as a teenager

Yes. And accusations of sexually assault. People conveniently ignore the (very) bad bits...but never ignore Courtney Love's. Not much feminism on show!
DGRossetti · 19/09/2021 10:16

The 70s had Rock against Racism - and surely someone must wonder why The Clash had a reggae vibe ?

Any surely someone remembers L7 at Reading ?