Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

@Pumperthepumper
Such as, from the DoE:
In 2019 35% of pupils did not reach the expected standard in reading, writing and maths (combined). That's terrible.
I get it that you are a loyal defender of everything done in schools, but there is room for improvement and what is happening in some schools is NOT what you describe.
I am struggling to understand what stimulating sentence structure could be found in a Level 4 Biff, Chip and Kipper book for a child who enjoys Harry Potter. The way to get children keen on reading is to give them something to read that interests them. She is being turned off both literacy and maths because the level is so low. Of course helping another child is OK at times, but she should be given challenging work at her own level too. She is always asking to learn at home but frustrated by the lack of stimulation at school.

[quote thenovice]@Pumperthepumper
Such as, from the DoE:
In 2019 35% of pupils did not reach the expected standard in reading, writing and maths (combined). That's terrible.
I get it that you are a loyal defender of everything done in schools, but there is room for improvement and what is happening in some schools is NOT what you describe.
I am struggling to understand what stimulating sentence structure could be found in a Level 4 Biff, Chip and Kipper book for a child who enjoys Harry Potter. The way to get children keen on reading is to give them something to read that interests them. She is being turned off both literacy and maths because the level is so low. Of course helping another child is OK at times, but she should be given challenging work at her own level too. She is always asking to learn at home but frustrated by the lack of stimulation at school.[/quote]
That is terrible. What should we do about it?

@LostFrog

Gosh hi everyone, wasn’t expecting so many replies but thanks for all the different perspectives. The update is that I have spoken to the teacher to ask for clarity on what was expected and he took on board my concerns, he said that ds mustn’t feel responsible for others’ learning and that he would reiterate this to all his ‘learning mentors’ on Monday. He said that he wanted to help them feel confident by giving them some responsibility but on reflection realised that perhaps it was too much pressure especially at an early stage. He also called the whole practice ‘contentious’ which made me wonder whether he was a secret Mumsnetter and had been on here

Anyway, hopefully a good outcome for ds.
Thank you everyone, hearing different opinions probably stopped me going off guns blazing but also gave me some great arguments to make. I almost sounded like I knew what I was talking about

Ah that’s good news then OP! Hope it’s better for him now, good work

@Pumperthepumper, your thoughts on what a skilled reader could get out of a simple book are mind boggling.

What you are proposing is a sure way to kill any interest in reading a child might have.

Your suggestion is so far from what a skilled reader might need that I would like to know what you think the term 'skilled reader' means.

[quote mathanxiety]@Pumperthepumper, your thoughts on what a skilled reader could get out of a simple book are mind boggling.

What you are proposing is a sure way to kill any interest in reading a child might have.

Your suggestion is so far from what a skilled reader might need that I would like to know what you think the term 'skilled reader' means.[/quote]
What do you suggest instead?

I've responded multiple times to your one liner posts, @Pumperthepumper.

You can see what I suggest instead as extension work, if that's what you are talking about.

If not, and this particular post is about skilled readers, then sustained silent reading should be done in the classroom daily, with a book of the child's choice. Teachers can keep track of what a child is reading by checking the level of reading material, and whether a child is challenging him or herself by progression to higher level material.

What do you understand by the term 'skilled reader'?

@Pumperthepumper

It’s not the case that the school don’t want kids to progress, it’s that they want them to progress properly.

The problem is that class sizes are too big to allow a teacher to pay enough attention to anyone's progress, and the expectation that basic levels will be attained means that the students performing the worst will get what little attention there is to go round, while those students most likely to pass assessments without much input from a teacher will be ignored, or used to keep their peers focused.

[quote mathanxiety]@Pumperthepumper

It’s not the case that the school don’t want kids to progress, it’s that they want them to progress properly.

The problem is that class sizes are too big to allow a teacher to pay enough attention to anyone's progress, and the expectation that basic levels will be attained means that the students performing the worst will get what little attention there is to go round, while those students most likely to pass assessments without much input from a teacher will be ignored, or used to keep their peers focused.[/quote]
Again: I’ll never argue against smaller class sizes. Smaller classes with a range of abilities and interests are absolutely one way we could improve education.

But endlessly handing out extension tasks (worksheets) and just handing them the next level of book in a reading scheme because you’ve heard them read the previous one is, ironically, lazy, poor teaching.

Where’s the active learning? How are they processing knowledge in either of the above? How to we assess their skills in either of the above? Where’s the opportunity to consolidate knowledge in a worksheet?

We’re not just guessing with this stuff, we’re not thinking ‘ah I’ll give peer support a bash’, we know it works because the way we teach is based on decades of research, focused child-development tactics and constantly updating practice. It’s not guesswork.

I understand the term ‘skilled reader’ to mean someone who is confident in their own reading ability, someone who enjoys reading and someone who can form sounds, blend words and make sense of scribbles on a page, someone who can understand plot, character development and story arc.

So with a ‘skilled reader’ like the above, I’d be looking to broaden those existing skills. Which might involve giving them, say, We’re Going on a Bear Hunt’ to see if they can appreciate the story arc in a much more basic book. Or ignore the words and focus on the illusions and how we can ‘read’ a story from them. Or look at colour. Or look at drama.

I promise you, I’d be failing your skilled reader if I handed them them next Harry Potter book and got them to fill a worksheet in afterwards.

@Pumperthepumper
Do you mean focus on the ALLUSIONS rather than ILLUSIONS?
I suspect you are teaching infants rather than juniors?
At what stage do you think a child is ready to read Harry Potter, Anne of Green Gables, Black Beauty, Little House on the Prairie.....?

[quote thenovice]@Pumperthepumper
Do you mean focus on the ALLUSIONS rather than ILLUSIONS?
I suspect you are teaching infants rather than juniors?
At what stage do you think a child is ready to read Harry Potter, Anne of Green Gables, Black Beauty, Little House on the Prairie.....?[/quote]
I don’t think there is a set stage that a child is ready to read any of those - whenever they feel ready and willing to. But that doesn’t mean they’ve got a great understanding or a fantastic reading ability, it just means they can read a story. It’s my job to make it wider than that.

[quote thenovice]@Pumperthepumper
Do you mean focus on the ALLUSIONS rather than ILLUSIONS?
I suspect you are teaching infants rather than juniors?
At what stage do you think a child is ready to read Harry Potter, Anne of Green Gables, Black Beauty, Little House on the Prairie.....?[/quote]
I’ve just realised what that first question meant - I actually meant illustrations.

Not come across it as my DS is too young, but it’s not fair on the brighter children - if they’ve finished their work the teacher should be giving them extra to do, not using them as unpaid mentors.

Where we live the kids take a skills assessment test 3 times a year. DD’s math score has been static for years. Well above her grade level and holding steady. She has come to hate math class all while her teachers blathered on about a deeper understanding and extension within the curriculum. This year she finally got placed in a new curriculum model. They refuse to call it advanced or honors or anything so potentially offensive. The reality is that they will be covering 2 years of curriculum in 1 year. To join kids had to agree to potentially more work, being removed from the class for failure to keep up with content, failure to do homework, or significant behavioral issues. Dd is in heaven. She is engaged in her work for the first time. She wants to know why all her classes can’t be this way. She is only a month into the new curriculum and her fall assessment score that stayed static for years went up 100 points. So whether you use my definition of success, which is engagement, or the governments definition of success, which is that assessment score, the class is so far a massive success for her.

@Driftingblue

Where we live the kids take a skills assessment test 3 times a year. DD’s math score has been static for years. Well above her grade level and holding steady. She has come to hate math class all while her teachers blathered on about a deeper understanding and extension within the curriculum. This year she finally got placed in a new curriculum model. They refuse to call it advanced or honors or anything so potentially offensive. The reality is that they will be covering 2 years of curriculum in 1 year. To join kids had to agree to potentially more work, being removed from the class for failure to keep up with content, failure to do homework, or significant behavioral issues. Dd is in heaven. She is engaged in her work for the first time. She wants to know why all her classes can’t be this way. She is only a month into the new curriculum and her fall assessment score that stayed static for years went up 100 points. So whether you use my definition of success, which is engagement, or the governments definition of success, which is that assessment score, the class is so far a massive success for her.

This is streaming which is academically a success for the brightest. Whether it is a success for the less bright or, as a result, for the community as a whole (including, ultimately, the brightest) is imo very doubtful. And I speak as the parent of a child who is top of her class. The behavioural issues are an exception and ideally specific management should be aimed at minimising that. Skimming off the bright, engaged learners is one way of dealing with it…at a terrible, terrible cost to the academically less able child.

That's wonderful. What a great idea. We need more initiatives like that.

Its not new, i was a reading monitor and helped less able readers back in the early 70s when i was 8 or 9.
My dc who are in their mid 20s also did similar.

@thenovice

That's wonderful. What a great idea. We need more initiatives like that.

It does work really well, it’s no longer just reading a book but understanding what reading is, it’s great.

@peaceanddove

*That’s actually laughable - you brought up the league table. You did. Because you wanted to have a go, and it backfired.

When did I say a poster’s DH wasn’t as good at maths as they thought they were? Could you quote that? I’ll wait.

I absolutely did say that about your daughter, and I meant it. If she sat and listened to a teacher and then filled in a worksheet for the entirety of her education - which you said was true - she’s not nearly as good at maths as you think she is.

Slag off Jaxxon as much as you like then. Go ahead. Let’s hear more about how the Jaxxons of the world are holding your daughter back*

I think I will leave this here. You are deliberately mis-reading and misinterpreting my posts to the extent that I don't think you're perhaps entirely rational on here. I'm not the one who has had numerous posts deleted because of their offensive content.

So, I'm slowly backing away from you and the thread without making any sudden moves or any eye contact. Bye.

Hey peaceanddove nice to see you again yakking about the same old things you always used to. I've recently returned too. I was never banned though.

@Coronawireless
You speak as if bright children are a resource we can dispatch. They aren’t a means to an end, they are human beings and as such should be treated like ends, not means.

@Pumperthepumper, I see you read the term 'extension work' and mistook it for 'worksheet pages'. Do you give out worksheets to your students who finish work early?

Wrt sustained silent reading, and the monitoring that goes on...Teachers can summon students to their desk individually to ask about the reading material (chosen from anywhere the student has access to books) and ascertain whether the student is passively reading or truly comprehending the book.

Teachers can also assign book reports to assess comprehension and other skills.

Do you stick to reading schemes in your classroom?

Peer tutoring/ peer to peer teaching/ peer mentoring has to be very well planned and amenable to assessment. This is not what seems to be happening in the OP's DS' classroom.

Putting one child in a position where he has to deal with the emotional and psychological, and perhaps developmental issues facing his classmate, with no support or feedback mechanism, no input from the teacher as to expected results, no specific parameters for a specific project requiring management, co-operation, collaboration, and assessment, and for an extended period of time with the same 'partner' is not peer to peer learning. It is a teacher palming off a difficult child on another because there is a squeakier wheel somewhere else in the overcrowded classroom requiring oil.

www.literacyworldwide.org/docs/default-source/bonus-materials/507-chapter-3.pdf?sfvrsn=e166a38e_4
This is peer teaching.

DC school does this in small group situations, getting pupils who finished the work to explain to others the process they used to answer. I think this could be helpful to everyone in different ways, but regularly getting a child to assist a disinterested pupil with their work isn't helpful to either. The former helps pupils learn how to explain, the later became the pupil who is struggling with the work is disengaged can lead to the learning mentor feeling anxious and frustrated themselves and doesn't sound like it's teacher either anything. Helping explain how they did their work is one thing, expecting them to engage a disengaged pupil isn't fair on either child.

I used to help my friends at school in maths and chemistry, but they were engaged students, wanted help, wanted to do the work and just needed someone to explain it and go through the work with them a couple of times before they could work independently. Very different to OPs son's situation.

because

[quote mathanxiety]@Pumperthepumper, I see you read the term 'extension work' and mistook it for 'worksheet pages'. Do you give out worksheets to your students who finish work early?

Wrt sustained silent reading, and the monitoring that goes on...Teachers can summon students to their desk individually to ask about the reading material (chosen from anywhere the student has access to books) and ascertain whether the student is passively reading or truly comprehending the book.

Teachers can also assign book reports to assess comprehension and other skills.

Do you stick to reading schemes in your classroom?

Peer tutoring/ peer to peer teaching/ peer mentoring has to be very well planned and amenable to assessment. This is not what seems to be happening in the OP's DS' classroom.

Putting one child in a position where he has to deal with the emotional and psychological, and perhaps developmental issues facing his classmate, with no support or feedback mechanism, no input from the teacher as to expected results, no specific parameters for a specific project requiring management, co-operation, collaboration, and assessment, and for an extended period of time with the same 'partner' is not peer to peer learning. It is a teacher palming off a difficult child on another because there is a squeakier wheel somewhere else in the overcrowded classroom requiring oil.

www.literacyworldwide.org/docs/default-source/bonus-materials/507-chapter-3.pdf?sfvrsn=e166a38e_4
This is peer teaching.[/quote]
Worth repeating. Couldn't think of the words, this was what I was thinking re the responsibility the 'learning mentor' is put under. It's not fair to either child.

[quote mathanxiety]@Pumperthepumper, I see you read the term 'extension work' and mistook it for 'worksheet pages'. Do you give out worksheets to your students who finish work early?

Wrt sustained silent reading, and the monitoring that goes on...Teachers can summon students to their desk individually to ask about the reading material (chosen from anywhere the student has access to books) and ascertain whether the student is passively reading or truly comprehending the book.

Teachers can also assign book reports to assess comprehension and other skills.

Do you stick to reading schemes in your classroom?

Peer tutoring/ peer to peer teaching/ peer mentoring has to be very well planned and amenable to assessment. This is not what seems to be happening in the OP's DS' classroom.

Putting one child in a position where he has to deal with the emotional and psychological, and perhaps developmental issues facing his classmate, with no support or feedback mechanism, no input from the teacher as to expected results, no specific parameters for a specific project requiring management, co-operation, collaboration, and assessment, and for an extended period of time with the same 'partner' is not peer to peer learning. It is a teacher palming off a difficult child on another because there is a squeakier wheel somewhere else in the overcrowded classroom requiring oil.

www.literacyworldwide.org/docs/default-source/bonus-materials/507-chapter-3.pdf?sfvrsn=e166a38e_4
This is peer teaching.[/quote]
I asked you several times what you meant by ‘extension work’ - could you clarify what you expect that to be?

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

I’ve also said several times the management of peer teaching is being done poorly in the OP’s son’s classroom.

This is getting very circular now, and again; I feel I’ve explained why we do what we do pretty well.

I’d love to hear why you think your ideas are better, I really would. And what you think ‘extension tasks’ should be, if not peer collaboration or worksheets.

Worth repeating. Couldn't think of the words, this was what I was thinking re the responsibility the 'learning mentor' is put under. It's not fair to either child.
In my experience of my dc and myself it actually builds confidence