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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

736 replies

LostFrog · 15/09/2021 12:36

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

OP posts:
powershowerforanhour · 16/09/2021 21:57

Ah, I see. Poor management again.

THAT WOULD BE AN ECUMENICAL MATTER.

Pumperthepumper · 16/09/2021 21:59

@bellie710

There are many reasons not to like this rule.
  1. The teacher is relying on another child teaching your child Maths and hoping they know what they are doing.
  1. Most of the time the child tells them the answer without any explanation so the teacher assumes they know what they are doing.
  1. Any children who are clever instead of being given extra work or harder work to do they are doing nothing but helping other children, not being challenged at all!

I could go on, the school don't care everyone has complained tehy just ignore it, I am just glad my last child only has about anotgher 8 months in the school then she is gone!

That does sound very poorly done.
Newbabynewhouse · 16/09/2021 21:59

This see three before me rule would've probably made me get lower grades .. for the unpopular children with not many friends, it can be hard to get the confidence to ask for help from 3 peers... if the teacher doesn't want to know before they have asked 3 others, then can I see how some children may just sit and struggle

Pumperthepumper · 16/09/2021 22:01

@Newbabynewhouse

This see three before me rule would've probably made me get lower grades .. for the unpopular children with not many friends, it can be hard to get the confidence to ask for help from 3 peers... if the teacher doesn't want to know before they have asked 3 others, then can I see how some children may just sit and struggle
I think it would work best in a community classroom, it would take a lot of background setting to make it work properly.
Dogmummastepmumma · 16/09/2021 22:51

Just 2 alternative opinions from a Mother of a child that needs the extra help and a child whk gives the extra help.
SD10 has always had trouble in lessons. She is bright, but when it comes to reading work, comprehending what she has read, then working out an answer, it becomes too much. She has a negative opinion of herself as she always used to be one of the last to finish. An adult teacher or TA explaining wouldnt always help as she always feels they are an adult so they dont understand why she does t know it. This year, she has been tabled with a non friend who assists her. This makes her feel liked, doesnt focus on the fact that every other child has finished except her, as her helper is still working too (with her!) She understands things a bit better when explained in an age appropriate way by a peer.

Now SS8. Struggles with confidence. Excellent at lessons and quick to picm things up but struggles with social skills we didnt even know he had problems with. His face when he comes out of school telling us he helped a classmate get an answer right is priceless. Makes him feel wanted and helps bond with his peers as over the past 18 months his anger and fear of losing attachments has made him reactive and he ended up missing class due to this. The other kiddos now dont see him as the grumpy one.

If your LO isnt bothered, then embrace the chance for them to learn compassion and that not all children are as clever at the same things.

Holskey · 16/09/2021 23:08

@Newbabynewhouse

See .. I'm mixed about this.. Im Training to be a teacher and there is a big emphasis on how children helping other children is beneficial in lots of different ways.. self esteem etc etc child struggling finds it easier to talk to another child etc.. but IMO I feel like schools may be pushing this so they don't have to pay for a TA ..
What? Are you just starting your teacher training? Schools don't push this because there's no money for a TA! It's supported by studies (like most teaching practices) and it's popular because Ofsted expect to see it.
bellie710 · 16/09/2021 23:10

@Dogmummastepmumma

Just 2 alternative opinions from a Mother of a child that needs the extra help and a child whk gives the extra help. SD10 has always had trouble in lessons. She is bright, but when it comes to reading work, comprehending what she has read, then working out an answer, it becomes too much. She has a negative opinion of herself as she always used to be one of the last to finish. An adult teacher or TA explaining wouldnt always help as she always feels they are an adult so they dont understand why she does t know it. This year, she has been tabled with a non friend who assists her. This makes her feel liked, doesnt focus on the fact that every other child has finished except her, as her helper is still working too (with her!) She understands things a bit better when explained in an age appropriate way by a peer.

Now SS8. Struggles with confidence. Excellent at lessons and quick to picm things up but struggles with social skills we didnt even know he had problems with. His face when he comes out of school telling us he helped a classmate get an answer right is priceless. Makes him feel wanted and helps bond with his peers as over the past 18 months his anger and fear of losing attachments has made him reactive and he ended up missing class due to this. The other kiddos now dont see him as the grumpy one.

If your LO isnt bothered, then embrace the chance for them to learn compassion and that not all children are as clever at the same things.

While this is all lovely for certain parents, when your kids are permanently bored at school because they finish a task in 15 minutes and spend 45 minutes helping the teacher then something is seriously wrong. Kids are there to be taught not to teach, I am all for helping out the kid next to you if they ask a question but from my experience of primary school which has been 11 years so far, the kids don't explain anything they just give them the answer so no one is winning.
Jennylinda79 · 16/09/2021 23:24

A fellow pupil should not be responsible for another pupil's learning outcomes. It sounds as if the other pupil needs more specialised support in class and the school needs to take more responsibility for the learning needs of this pupil. This is not a satisfactory situation for either pupil. Pressure on your son who needs extension work and lack of proper in class support for the other pupil.

NumberTheory · 17/09/2021 01:46

@Dogmummastepmumma

Just 2 alternative opinions from a Mother of a child that needs the extra help and a child whk gives the extra help. SD10 has always had trouble in lessons. She is bright, but when it comes to reading work, comprehending what she has read, then working out an answer, it becomes too much. She has a negative opinion of herself as she always used to be one of the last to finish. An adult teacher or TA explaining wouldnt always help as she always feels they are an adult so they dont understand why she does t know it. This year, she has been tabled with a non friend who assists her. This makes her feel liked, doesnt focus on the fact that every other child has finished except her, as her helper is still working too (with her!) She understands things a bit better when explained in an age appropriate way by a peer.

Now SS8. Struggles with confidence. Excellent at lessons and quick to picm things up but struggles with social skills we didnt even know he had problems with. His face when he comes out of school telling us he helped a classmate get an answer right is priceless. Makes him feel wanted and helps bond with his peers as over the past 18 months his anger and fear of losing attachments has made him reactive and he ended up missing class due to this. The other kiddos now dont see him as the grumpy one.

If your LO isnt bothered, then embrace the chance for them to learn compassion and that not all children are as clever at the same things.

But her kid is bothered. OP says so in her second post.

And in the first post she makes it clear he isn't able to help the kid. So it isn't going to improve his confidence or make him feel wanted. Most likely the exact opposite.

PurpleOkapi · 17/09/2021 02:33

I was sometimes told to do this as a child, too. And I hated it. I hated many things about school, so if that had been the extent of the problems with the practice, it wouldn't have mattered much. It wasn't.

From my perspective, helping other students was extra work that no one else was required to do, so it was unfair to single me out and force only me to do it. When other students finished, they got to either quietly amuse themselves with a book or just sit there with their own thoughts. I would have greatly preferred to do either of those things, just like everyone else was allowed to. But from my perspective, I was being punished by being treated differently, which made me suspect that understanding the material better than most of my peers was a bad thing. As a strong introvert, being stuck in a room with 20+ other people all day was hard enough, and all I wanted was a few precious minutes where I wasn't required to interact with anyone. But I wasn't allowed to do that until whomever I was supposed to be helping had finished. I couldn't wave some magic wand and make them understand these concepts - if the teacher couldn't make them understand it, why would I be able to? And I wasn't allowed to just do it for them, so the end result was that I rarely got the same amount of free time most of the other children got. Depriving me - and only me - of those little slivers of downtime just seemed sadistic.

Naturally, I resented this. It didn't teach me empathy or compassion - it did the opposite. If other students' academic success hadn't been linked to my own treatment in this way, I wouldn't have felt anything negative toward them. But because I was being punished for what I perceived as their shortcomings, I was effectively being trained to view them as bad, harmful, and toxic. Their very existence was an affront to me, because so long as they were there, I could never be treated fairly.

I grew to hate them on a personal level, and I made that clear, loudly and often. Doing that enough times usually got me removed from involuntary TA duties, which was all I'd wanted in the first place. So of course, it did nothing at all to impress upon me why that conduct was wrong. I'm sure many people tried to explain it, but no amount of lectures or explanations will erase the simple equation of "bad behaviour = getting what I want" from the mind of a child who's just done exactly that. Year after year, teachers would try to make me do this, and year after year, I'd eventually get out of it by saying horrible things that made the other child cry. Sometimes it took a while, and the other child did a lot of crying before we were finally rid of each other.

I deeply regret many of the things I said and did to the classmates I'd been taught to resent. As an adult, it's apparent in hindsight that many of them had terrible home lives, drug-addicted parents, or undiagnosed learning or emotional disorders. Some others simply weren't very smart, but that's not a character flaw, and it's deserving of compassion rather than scorn. I understood none of those things as a child, because I was a child and not a trained teacher. If this was actually a misguided attempt to teach me anything, my poor classmates certainly paid the price for it.

GetMeOut22 · 17/09/2021 05:27

This brings back such bad memories of school around the same age. I was the bright diligent little girl sat next to a naughty lazy boy and made to help him all the time. I got so frustrated, anxious and fed up and refused to do the work anymore. No one noticed until I failed my classes! It's such a lazy way for teachers to discipline the naughty/distracted kids.

mathanxiety · 17/09/2021 06:07

What extension activities would you want?

@Pumperthepumper, speaking from observation of what my own children were offered, and what they found stimulating:

Story prompts,
Drawing prompts,
Challenges - make words from another longer word,
Logic puzzles,
Verbal reasoning - analogy puzzles, comprehension of passages,
Maths - word problems, pattern problems,
Tangrams,
Writing /grammar/ comprehension exercises - read the passage and change the ending, find all the adjectives, all the verbs, identify subject and object, various clauses, 'correct the following sentences', 'make the following sentences clearer', 'correct the punctuation', identify characters' motives/tone,
Spatial reasoning,
Mechanical reasoning...

They had folders on their desks which they could open when finished with set work, and work on whatever they felt like, then hand it up along with the set work. Their teachers kept track of the sort of extra work they were gravitating to (for example, more maths than visual puzzles) and could reduce the favourite options and add more choices in areas they were avoiding.

The sort of work I saw in my DCs' folders is available online now. Back when my DCs were in elementary school, teachers had to to far more legwork to come up with the contents of the "Never Done Work' folder.

Pumperthepumper · 17/09/2021 07:37

@mathanxiety

What extension activities would you want?

@Pumperthepumper, speaking from observation of what my own children were offered, and what they found stimulating:

Story prompts,
Drawing prompts,
Challenges - make words from another longer word,
Logic puzzles,
Verbal reasoning - analogy puzzles, comprehension of passages,
Maths - word problems, pattern problems,
Tangrams,
Writing /grammar/ comprehension exercises - read the passage and change the ending, find all the adjectives, all the verbs, identify subject and object, various clauses, 'correct the following sentences', 'make the following sentences clearer', 'correct the punctuation', identify characters' motives/tone,
Spatial reasoning,
Mechanical reasoning...

They had folders on their desks which they could open when finished with set work, and work on whatever they felt like, then hand it up along with the set work. Their teachers kept track of the sort of extra work they were gravitating to (for example, more maths than visual puzzles) and could reduce the favourite options and add more choices in areas they were avoiding.

The sort of work I saw in my DCs' folders is available online now. Back when my DCs were in elementary school, teachers had to to far more legwork to come up with the contents of the "Never Done Work' folder.

That seems like a lot of worksheets.
TheFairyCaravan · 17/09/2021 07:52

My children helped other children through primary school. I didn’t object to it and neither did they, tbh.

I can even remember going to a parents evening for DS2 when he was in Year 11 and the French teacher told me that she’d moved someone who was struggling a bit next to him because they bounced off DS2 and DS2 was always eager to help. DS2 and the person he was helping both got their predicted grades so it all worked out well in the end.

DS2 is such a lovely, kind person anyhow. When he had a Saturday job one of the people he worked with was having difficulty with his driving theory test because he couldn’t read very well. So DS2 used to stay back at the end of a shift, for many weeks, to help him until he passed.

MoreAloneTime · 17/09/2021 08:10

@Newbabynewhouse

This see three before me rule would've probably made me get lower grades .. for the unpopular children with not many friends, it can be hard to get the confidence to ask for help from 3 peers... if the teacher doesn't want to know before they have asked 3 others, then can I see how some children may just sit and struggle
Agree. This policy would have had me sitting in silence feeling like I'd be told off for approaching the teacher at all. I can also imagine for a socially excluded child the other kids thinking it's a great laugh to refuse to help. This sort of bullying is very subtle and a teacher with 30+ kids may not notice.

I'm also very cynical about "teaching empathy" in general as its more often than not used as an excuse to justify putting children and young people in situations they aren't ready to cope with.

jontyl · 17/09/2021 08:31

In life it is sensible that when climbing the ladder of success that you reach behind and give a hand to those behind you.

MoreAloneTime · 17/09/2021 08:46

That's all well and good in the workplace but the chances of the OPs kid and Jaxxon being colleagues is pretty slim

babblemum · 17/09/2021 09:10

When my children were in primary school, they were told by their teacher it’s “ask 3 before me” so they had to ask round their class for help before bothering the teacher

Pumperthepumper · 17/09/2021 09:17

@MoreAloneTime

That's all well and good in the workplace but the chances of the OPs kid and Jaxxon being colleagues is pretty slim
I guess it depends on where they live - the village I lived in a few years ago had one main (energy) employer, and it was common for families to stay put. A lot of the kids went to school with kids of their parents’ and often grandparents’ friends. Fairly rural Scotland. So it wouldn’t be a massive coincidence if classmates were working together as adults.

And regardless of Jaxxon, chances are he will end up working with people he’ll have to adjust his communication for.

LimitIsUp · 17/09/2021 09:18

100% agree MarchAlone

LimitIsUp · 17/09/2021 09:19

Or even MoreAlone

LimitIsUp · 17/09/2021 09:23

I've also felt quite triggered / growing irritation when reading posts which refer to "brighter" kids helping the others. Can I just point out that having better literacy skills does not make a child brighter than the other. They are simply more able in one discrete area!

thenovice · 17/09/2021 10:04

In DS2's school the bottom line is they do nothing to stretch anyone who can do the set work. The school is only interested in pulling those below the required standard (mostly due to misbehaving) up to an acceptable standard. So that is what they use the able kids for. Mine just wants something to challenge her and the odd bit of praise would help too. As she sees it, the kids who behave badly and do nothing get a trumpet fanfare if they actually bother and complete a piece of work. She finishes everything and is told to help some of the misbehaving kids. But she gets no praise or thanks and she doesn't want to do it because they don't want to learn and she would rather be learning something more. The school has also started to use TAs with no formal education to teach on a regular basis (i.e. not just if a teacher is off sick).

bedtimestories · 17/09/2021 10:14

My daughter helped other kids, teacher told me it would help her with further understanding of the work. It is in her nature to help

Coronawireless · 17/09/2021 10:17

@MoreAloneTime

That's all well and good in the workplace but the chances of the OPs kid and Jaxxon being colleagues is pretty slim
What a disgusting dismissive attitude.