Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

But you carry on Jack, you’re all right!

Really, such attitudes contribute so much to a more horrible world for everyone - your own children included!!!

Sorry for not being able to fall over with sympathy for kids who treated me like crap at school. For many of us it's just about survival and telling myself I'd never have to have anything to do with them once I left school helped me to cope.

I never minded helping out friends or even just the kids that were nice to me when it seemed appropriate. Being made to help someone who doesn't want your help not so much.

@LimitIsUp

I've also felt quite triggered / growing irritation when reading posts which refer to "brighter" kids helping the others. Can I just point out that having better literacy skills does not make a child brighter than the other. They are simply more able in one discrete area!

I pointed this out several times in the thread too! People have a weird idea of ‘higher ability’, I think, where they can’t see what that high ability looks like to different kids.

@MoreAloneTime

Sorry for not being able to fall over with sympathy for kids who treated me like crap at school. For many of us it's just about survival and telling myself I'd never have to have anything to do with them once I left school helped me to cope.

I never minded helping out friends or even just the kids that were nice to me when it seemed appropriate. Being made to help someone who doesn't want your help not so much.

I don’t doubt you had to deal with unpleasantness but nastiness has nothing to do with how bright people are. Though the methods of unpleasantness are probably different. Eg a bright child sneering at a child who has trouble learning.

I think when there has been a lot of negativity through unchecked behaviour between children it's inevitable. I can well imagine if a bright child who has been picked by someone is then put in a position to sneer at them for not being able to read well it's going to be a temptation to get back at them.

Maybe these things work in small classes where the teacher is able to be aware and responsive of any issues like bullying and exclusion. A real 30+ class not a chance.

My absolute favorite teachers handled the curriculum problem by changing the assignment itself, not offering extra work for finishing quickly. For math that would be doing fewer of the basic problems before moving on to more challenging versions. (I think this was easier when everything was textbook based) For another subject it might be giving essay questions instead of a fill in the blank worksheet.

@MoreAloneTime

I think when there has been a lot of negativity through unchecked behaviour between children it's inevitable. I can well imagine if a bright child who has been picked by someone is then put in a position to sneer at them for not being able to read well it's going to be a temptation to get back at them.

Maybe these things work in small classes where the teacher is able to be aware and responsive of any issues like bullying and exclusion. A real 30+ class not a chance.

I would never argue against smaller class sizes.

But actually, peer learning works best with a wide range of abilities, in a community-focused classroom with a bright and engaging teacher who explains properly what they’re doing and why. It has to be managed properly - the children shouldn’t resent each other, and there definitely should be no name calling.

A lot of posters talked about ‘just giving them the answer’ and the point I’m trying to make is, that’s not what peer support is for, it’s not about sharing answers. It’s about consolidating your own knowledge and building your own vocabulary and communication skills. So it works best if children know that’s what the aim is.

@LimitIsUp

I've also felt quite triggered / growing irritation when reading posts which refer to "brighter" kids helping the others. Can I just point out that having better literacy skills does not make a child brighter than the other. They are simply more able in one discrete area!

Fair enough if terms like bright or advanced aren’t appropriate. It is hard to select the best word in this situation. However, we did need some term to describe students who find the school curriculum easy. I’m happy to adapt my language if someone can suggest something acceptable that can relay the idea of children who happen to perform well in school academically.

@Driftingblue

My absolute favorite teachers handled the curriculum problem by changing the assignment itself, not offering extra work for finishing quickly. For math that would be doing fewer of the basic problems before moving on to more challenging versions. (I think this was easier when everything was textbook based) For another subject it might be giving essay questions instead of a fill in the blank worksheet.

That would be great. I'm afraid all mine gets is basic White Rose sheets and Twinkle sheets. Their entire school day consists of nothing but scaffolded Twinkle or White Rose worksheets. She DETESTS them. She gets told off for getting the answers right by conventional mathematical methods, without going through all the tedium of counting counters and other methods designed to help people who haven't yet "got it".

@thenovice have you spoken to the school about it?

I’d say the counting methods aren’t for the other kids but for her to relearn concepts she already knows (the old ‘we’re not looking for answers’ thing again). So if she already knows 3 piles of 4 are twelve, she can also look at two piles of six, one pile of ten plus one pile of two, and so on.

It’s true ability in one area doesn’t make the child brighter. And some children can excel in some subjects and not in others - some can be ace in maths/science/tech but struggle more with language/literacy/comprehension; or excel at literacy/language but struggle with maths.

But when describing the able child asked to ‘mentor’ a less able child in that subject -

what language would you prefer?

I am more worried about the effect this may have on the other child than the effect it is having on your son. Setting some children up as "learning mentors" and others as the recipients of their superior knowledge seems extremely divisive and demoralizing to the children who need help. I can't believe they would humiliate a child who already knows they are struggling like that. It's one step away from the dunce cap.

And, as others have said, while it might benefit your child to explain things sometimes, an explanation from another 9 yo is not going to help the other child as much as an explanation from an actual teacher. And it is definitely not your child's job to make sure his classmate understands fractions. I would definitely clarify to the teacher that this is not working for your son.

Putting them on tables where good work habits are unintentionally modelled by one child for the benefit of another is good. Giving them some work to do in teams to reinforce this is also good. (Though frustrating for the conscientious pupils carrying the load.). But putting labels on them and giving them responsibility for someone else's learning is bang out of order.

@Pumperthepumper
I think she's gone a bit beyond 3 x 4 = 2 x 6.. She can find the expression for the nth term in a sequence, and use algebra for calculations. So being forced to do White Rose stuff is just torture.

And yes we have spoken to the school. Last time we did, it got her bullied by the teacher.

[quote thenovice]@Pumperthepumper
I think she's gone a bit beyond 3 x 4 = 2 x 6.. She can find the expression for the nth term in a sequence, and use algebra for calculations. So being forced to do White Rose stuff is just torture.[/quote]
Yes, it was an example, I obviously don’t know what stage your daughter is at in numeracy.

So she can use algebra for calculations, does she know why that’s important? Does she understand the real-world connotations of that? Could she adapt her language around the nth term to explain it to someone who doesn’t understand it?

@TatianaBis

what language would you prefer?

The language which I think is more appropriate is mentoring a child who is less able in a specific subject (i think you wrote that yourself in a preceding post)

I know that's a less punchy, short hand description, but the use of 'brighter' child helping another child feels personal to me. Dyslexic dd is smart and intelligent - she is excellent at analysis, problem solving, lateral thinking and is numerate, creative and emotionally intelligent - it therefore smarts a bit that people might describe those with better literacy skills as brighter than her - when actually they aren't necessarily (some will be, many won't be)

However, I do realise that nobody meant it to be belittling

So every time we want to refer to the less able child we have to say rather than relying on the intelligence of the posters to know that many children are more or less able in some subjects than in others.

Perhaps instead of writing it out long hand we could do a MN shorthand: MACWILAIASS

Well now you are revealing yourself to be less able

Just avoid the fucking word brighter, okay?

less able / more able in a subject

Its not hard

Xpost - at least you accept it’s rather laborious

Aiui, peer support is not used for dyslexia or any kind of SEN where it would be inappropriate. Well it’s not supposed to be, I suspect it is in practice. But in principle it’s not the same scenario.

All that is really referred to is the child is who is deemed more able in that subject by the teacher at that point. Like I said a child may be a whizz at maths but struggle with English comprehension or vice versa.

Sorry that was a bit rude

I'm clearly a bit thin skinned and over sensitive today. I'll get my coat