Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

@mathanxiety

Putting one child in a position where he has to deal with the emotional and psychological, and perhaps developmental issues facing his classmate, with no support or feedback mechanism, no input from the teacher as to expected results, no specific parameters for a specific project requiring management, co-operation, collaboration, and assessment, and for an extended period of time with the same 'partner' is not peer to peer learning. It is a teacher palming off a difficult child on another because there is a squeakier wheel somewhere else in the overcrowded classroom requiring oil.

I think this is very insightful and well put. A very clever 9 year olds is still emotionally, psychologically and socially a 9 year old.

@expressofthemundane
Its nonsense

It is a terrible idea for teachers to delegate their work teaching the least able in the class to the most able child. It is even worse to dress it up as some form of character building exercise for both children.

There are so many things to unpick that I hardly know where to start.

• Firstly it's that as a professional, though not a teacher, I expect people to understand that not just anyone has the aptitude or training to do my job. This is a matter of professional pride and the idea that I would say anyone could do it, even a child is bizarre;

• Children are not at school to be subjected to the whims of the latest theory (as I am writing this I'm thinking: "but that's what happens" but they really shouldn't.);

• Children are not at school to make the lives of lazy teachers easier. I am not having a go at teachers in particular. I remember wonderful teachers. I also remember some stinkers. In my job there are a few angels, the competent and those slippery bastards who use any angle to evade work. I expect everyone knows one of those;

As a professional I expect to be paid for my work. I do not expect volunteers, however willing, to be allowed to undermine my training and experience and diminish my salary and professionalism by doing it for nothing. I am thinking of the "Mum's Army" advocated by John "Back To Basics" Major's government of 1992-1997. This was doing education for the proles in state schools on the cheap by encouraging mums who had nothing better to do than to think teaching was easy. Consequently loads of people who were completely unsuited signed up. Indeed, @PeaceandDove* said that she tried to be a teaching assistant but realised she wasn't up to it. It was admirable of her to concede that;

• Children should not be put in charge of other children. We've all read Lord Of The Flies, haven't we?

@limitedperiodonly

It is a terrible idea for teachers to delegate their work teaching the least able in the class to the most able child. It is even worse to dress it up as some form of character building exercise for both children.

There are so many things to unpick that I hardly know where to start.

• Firstly it's that as a professional, though not a teacher, I expect people to understand that not just anyone has the aptitude or training to do my job. This is a matter of professional pride and the idea that I would say anyone could do it, even a child is bizarre;

• Children are not at school to be subjected to the whims of the latest theory (as I am writing this I'm thinking: "but that's what happens" but they really shouldn't.);

• Children are not at school to make the lives of lazy teachers easier. I am not having a go at teachers in particular. I remember wonderful teachers. I also remember some stinkers. In my job there are a few angels, the competent and those slippery bastards who use any angle to evade work. I expect everyone knows one of those;

As a professional I expect to be paid for my work. I do not expect volunteers, however willing, to be allowed to undermine my training and experience and diminish my salary and professionalism by doing it for nothing. I am thinking of the "Mum's Army" advocated by John "Back To Basics" Major's government of 1992-1997. This was doing education for the proles in state schools on the cheap by encouraging mums who had nothing better to do than to think teaching was easy. Consequently loads of people who were completely unsuited signed up. Indeed, @PeaceandDove* said that she tried to be a teaching assistant but realised she wasn't up to it. It was admirable of her to concede that;

• Children should not be put in charge of other children. We've all read Lord Of The Flies, haven't we?

Again; that’s not what peer support is. Nobody thinks your ten year old is capable of actually teaching anyone anything

And of course, the irony in several people saying the best teaching technique they can think of is handing out worksheets for the child to work through alone.

The comments I read didn’t say that was the best teaching technique, they said they would rather their kid was given a worksheet than obliged to do peer support.

Neither are great tbh.

@TatianaBis

The comments I read didn’t say that was the best teaching technique, they said they would rather their kid was given a worksheet than obliged to do peer support.

Neither are great tbh.

Ok, so no worksheets and no peer support. What should we do instead?

I dunno, teach?

@TatianaBis

I dunno, teach?

But you don’t like the techniques I’m using to teach. What do you suggest instead? No worksheets, no peer support. What else?

I’ll just choose another school

There's always differentiation, surely?

I asked you several times what you meant by ‘extension work’ - could you clarify what you expect that to be?

Done and dusted. I provided a long list of options upthread, and also how extension work can be assessed and monitored. 'Worksheet' presentation of prompts doesn't mean they are not open ended, btw.

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Deeper diving into the curriculum involves flogging it to death. I wouldn't class it as an appropriate method of achieving any goal, for any of the students involved.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that the alternative to worksheets is foisting Harry Potter on students.

My reference to sustained silent reading includes the following elements:
Child chooses reading material.
Teacher can monitor choices, check for progression.
Teacher can ask child various probing questions about reading material, differentiating as appropriate, with each child receiving five minutes of time with the teacher in the course of a week.
Teacher keeps track of each student's choices, progression, responses.
Teacher can talk about his or her own reading.
Teachers can also set up 'book clubs', groups where students discuss their own reading, recommend books for others, ask others about their books. Discussion prompts can be used in these groups, which can be set up according to reading ability.

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

Such as? "How long before the bell rings and we can bust out of here?"

How much time would you devote to this mind numbing exercise?

@TatianaBis

I’ll just choose another school

And what will they be doing differently?

@mathanxiety

There's always differentiation, surely?

I asked you several times what you meant by ‘extension work’ - could you clarify what you expect that to be?

Done and dusted. I provided a long list of options upthread, and also how extension work can be assessed and monitored. 'Worksheet' presentation of prompts doesn't mean they are not open ended, btw.

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Deeper diving into the curriculum involves flogging it to death. I wouldn't class it as an appropriate method of achieving any goal, for any of the students involved.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that the alternative to worksheets is foisting Harry Potter on students.

My reference to sustained silent reading includes the following elements:
Child chooses reading material.
Teacher can monitor choices, check for progression.
Teacher can ask child various probing questions about reading material, differentiating as appropriate, with each child receiving five minutes of time with the teacher in the course of a week.
Teacher keeps track of each student's choices, progression, responses.
Teacher can talk about his or her own reading.
Teachers can also set up 'book clubs', groups where students discuss their own reading, recommend books for others, ask others about their books. Discussion prompts can be used in these groups, which can be set up according to reading ability.

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

Such as? "How long before the bell rings and we can bust out of here?"

How much time would you devote to this mind numbing exercise?

Ok. I’m not explaining again why your ideas don’t build knowledge.

And what will they be doing differently?

Everything, by the sound of it.

@TatianaBis

And what will they be doing differently?

Everything, by the sound of it.

But you can’t think of anything specific.

I’m not asking again, if you can’t tell me what I should be doing instead, I’m not interested in further ‘discussion’.

If I were interested in a discussion I could/would have been more forthcoming.

@TatianaBis

If I were interested in a discussion I could/would have been more forthcoming.

So what do you want?

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

This is not 'building knowledge'. You are talking about the basics of teaching analogue clock reading. Big hand, little hand, the fact the the numbers represent different increments...

What 'other things' are you talking about here?

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Setting up straw men (Harry Potter books and what you imagine a teacher might do with reading material) isn't explanation. It's dismissal of challenges to your view of what teaching should consist of and how it should be handled.

@mathanxiety

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Setting up straw men (Harry Potter books and what you imagine a teacher might do with reading material) isn't explanation. It's dismissal of challenges to your view of what teaching should consist of and how it should be handled.

But you don’t know what you’re talking about. You can’t explain to me why your ideas would work better than mine.

@mathanxiety

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

This is not 'building knowledge'. You are talking about the basics of teaching analogue clock reading. Big hand, little hand, the fact the the numbers represent different increments...

What 'other things' are you talking about here?

No: it absolutely is building knowledge. If you understand six is half of twelve, that means you understand fractions better. If you see one as thirteen and also a minute and also a second but also an hour, you lose the idea of numbers being fixed. If you can see three as fifteen, you also build on your knowledge of the three and five times tables.

I can’t believe anyone would think that’s less useful than simply being able to tell the time. Especially in these days of digital technology.

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I would definitely want to have a discussion with the school. I can see what the second poster is saying, but with such a reluctant pupil I don’t think it will help your ds at all.

I’d go in and make it clear he needs to be set extension work and not be teaching another child.

This

Well done for resolving it OP. My school introduced this for a while. Then they stopped it, because the ‘brighter’ kids in the class (which in our class was those with well-off supportive parents) were stressed and confused by a leadership role they weren’t ready for, and the ‘less-bright’ kids (in our class these were all from financially struggling single-parent families) resented the children who had been told to teach them and the resentment turned into arguments in the playground / other bad behaviour.

Children shouldn’t be turned on each other in this way, especially not when they’re the same age. It’s a failed teaching strategy that sounds good on paper but is bad for the children.

Flogging the same thing over and over again for deeper meaning kills it. School killed my love and enjoyment of reading by year 5 I hated it with a passion. Books just became a boring thing for learning a topic not loving a topic or truly engaging. They where used for skim reading to find what I needed.

I didn’t pick up a book for pleasure again until I was 26.

Anyone else get “greater good” from hot fuzz feelings over deeper meaning and mastery

There is a v bright boy on DS class, but his social skills are poor. This would be an excellent taks for him. School is not just about constantly having more academic work to do, especially if you are flying along with that