Ds expected to “help” another pupil with work in class

[LostFrog]

Ds is 9 years old, just started Year 5, first year of new school (middle school system here).

He tells me that when he has finished his own work in class, he is required to help a boy who sits next to him. This happens every single lesson, and he says that the boy is reluctant to work, won’t write anything, gives up quickly and mutters all the time that he doesn’t get it, etc. From asking around, this seems to be the standard on every table in the class - there is one or two pupils who are “learning mentors” who have to teach the less able ones.

Is this a) normal, and b) reasonable? It’s not like ds volunteered for this role. If he has finished, Shouldn’t he be offered an extension task whilst the teacher or TA (there is one, I checked) help the ones who are struggling? I have emailed the teacher to ask them to clarify what’s expected, but has anyone else come across this?

[Pumperthepumper]

@mathanxiety

I've just explained in some detail why the clock face is really only suitable as a tool for intro to geometry and also why using nit as a foundation for anything else is problematic.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that teaching is only showing them a clock face
Can you please show me where I stated that or implied that? I ask because that assertion of yours is baffling me.

And also when you said ‘clocks are not the only way to show this’. Thanks for your input.

[Pumperthepumper]

@mathanxiety

I've just explained in some detail why the clock face is really only suitable as a tool for intro to geometry and also why using nit as a foundation for anything else is problematic.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that teaching is only showing them a clock face
Can you please show me where I stated that or implied that? I ask because that assertion of yours is baffling me.

I've just explained in some detail why the clock face is really only suitable as a tool for intro to geometry and also why using nit as a foundation for anything else is problematic

Yes, but you were wrong. A clock face easily splits up into fractions. So we can use it for that.

I said it because your whole post was about the clock face. I’m going to have to ask you mathanxiety - what is it you want from me? You’ve been away googling some basic maths ideas and presented it like you’ve got some incredible insight to teaching - you don’t. You should have spent that time looking at learning theories, that would give you a much better understanding of what we do in a classroom.

[mathanxiety]

I've just explained in some detail why the clock face is really only suitable as a tool for intro to geometry and also why using nit as a foundation for anything else is problematic.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that teaching is only showing them a clock face
Can you please show me where I stated that or implied that? I ask because that assertion of yours is baffling me.

[Pumperthepumper]

@mathanxiety

What we do is take a concept (in this example, telling the time) and look at how we can use it to apply other areas of knowledge. So we would learn to tell the time, but also use the clock face when we look at fractions, or times tables and so on.

The only indispensable reason to teach a child how to read an analogue clock is to give a child a feel for the passage of time, and even this is a fruitless task since a feel for this is partly a function of physical brain development.

You didn't mention geometry as a reason to teach clock reading, but it is actually the only mathematically relevant area for using the clock face, though even there it requires adaptation for complete relevance. Each minute = 6 degrees, the circle has 360 degrees, angles are represented visually by the two hands, and can be calculated, etc. This is the only area where the clock face functions within a system. In every other area it is an adjunct, a detour, and an example of various concepts with limited applicability.

There are many better ways to directly approach fractions, five times tables, and the concept of numbers simultaneously holding varying values.

Cuisenaire rods and other manipulatives that are specifically designed for their purpose convey those concepts much better. The clock face has distinct limitations in terms of relevance to clear thought, reason, and the wide world of numbers. It's a closed system operating with a numerical limit of 60.

We live in a base 10 world. At best, the clock as a teaching tool can reinforce other concepts in the base 10 system - five times tables, the fact that a whole can be divided into ever smaller parts (but even this has limited value and clocks are not the only way to show this - cake, pie, but above all actual math manipulatives work too). You are hoping to develop the faculty of logic here, to teach a general rule that can be applied, not teach tricks.

If you are trying to provide a foundation for future concepts, you need to make sure the example you are working with has no limitations and that your examples will be relevant within the base 10 system. Place value, the multiplication operation, and fractions are only partly shown by a clock. It's an everyday concept, not a scientific concept or a system.

As mathematical examples, cake and pie and other foods (and dividing up the clock face) refer to sharing or dividing - they present the idea of fractions as a partition. That's fine as far as it goes - it's a basic, everyday concept, but it has to be subsumed into the general system and enlarged in order to have relevance and move the student forward.

There are cognitive issues involved with irrational numbers, not just why the fractions are getting smaller but the numbers are getting bigger, but the idea of the whole as 1 vs a measurement of 1 unit within the whole. What is one third of a tape measuring 1.3m? What is one quarter of a tape measuring 1.3m? The meaning of the notation must be addressed. A tape measuring 1.3m with the 33cm increments marked and the 1m point highlighted would work better.

Teaching is only useful when it moves ahead of development.

I’m not sure where you got the idea that teaching is only showing them a clock face, and in fact, we already do everything outlined in your post, as I suspect you’re already aware, you didn’t invent maths tools!

Geometry is not the only reason to use a clock face, I already outlined what else we use it for above.

Thanks so much for your post, I enjoyed reading it.

[mathanxiety]

What we do is take a concept (in this example, telling the time) and look at how we can use it to apply other areas of knowledge. So we would learn to tell the time, but also use the clock face when we look at fractions, or times tables and so on.

The only indispensable reason to teach a child how to read an analogue clock is to give a child a feel for the passage of time, and even this is a fruitless task since a feel for this is partly a function of physical brain development.

You didn't mention geometry as a reason to teach clock reading, but it is actually the only mathematically relevant area for using the clock face, though even there it requires adaptation for complete relevance. Each minute = 6 degrees, the circle has 360 degrees, angles are represented visually by the two hands, and can be calculated, etc. This is the only area where the clock face functions within a system. In every other area it is an adjunct, a detour, and an example of various concepts with limited applicability.

There are many better ways to directly approach fractions, five times tables, and the concept of numbers simultaneously holding varying values.

Cuisenaire rods and other manipulatives that are specifically designed for their purpose convey those concepts much better. The clock face has distinct limitations in terms of relevance to clear thought, reason, and the wide world of numbers. It's a closed system operating with a numerical limit of 60.

We live in a base 10 world. At best, the clock as a teaching tool can reinforce other concepts in the base 10 system - five times tables, the fact that a whole can be divided into ever smaller parts (but even this has limited value and clocks are not the only way to show this - cake, pie, but above all actual math manipulatives work too). You are hoping to develop the faculty of logic here, to teach a general rule that can be applied, not teach tricks.

If you are trying to provide a foundation for future concepts, you need to make sure the example you are working with has no limitations and that your examples will be relevant within the base 10 system. Place value, the multiplication operation, and fractions are only partly shown by a clock. It's an everyday concept, not a scientific concept or a system.

As mathematical examples, cake and pie and other foods (and dividing up the clock face) refer to sharing or dividing - they present the idea of fractions as a partition. That's fine as far as it goes - it's a basic, everyday concept, but it has to be subsumed into the general system and enlarged in order to have relevance and move the student forward.

There are cognitive issues involved with irrational numbers, not just why the fractions are getting smaller but the numbers are getting bigger, but the idea of the whole as 1 vs a measurement of 1 unit within the whole. What is one third of a tape measuring 1.3m? What is one quarter of a tape measuring 1.3m? The meaning of the notation must be addressed. A tape measuring 1.3m with the 33cm increments marked and the 1m point highlighted would work better.

Teaching is only useful when it moves ahead of development.

[ellyeth]

I believe studies have shown that teaching someone to do something actually improves the proficiency and confidence of the person teaching.

I can understand that your son feels quite dispirited because the child he is helping doesn't seem that engaged and is having difficulty understanding. Perhaps if you commend him for being kind and helpful to someone who is struggling, he might feel better about it.

However, I think the teacher should pick up on the fact that this arrangement isn't entirely successful, and be more careful in checking what is happening.

I do think that sometimes your son should be given extension work and not always be expected to help the boy who is struggling.

[Pumperthepumper]

@Horst

But that’s still flogging it. A clock is a clock, half is a half I don’t need to study clocks again to know what a half is.

Not all children learn the same way yet we teach them all the same way.

That’s also not true, we don’t teach them all the same way. Look up maths strategies as the perfect example of the masses of different ways we teach.

You might know what a half is. Does every six year old? Does every adult make the connection between ‘6’ on a clock meaning ‘half of twelve’ or 1/2?

I’ve asked loads of people on this thread to give me a better way of teaching, can you suggest one that would work better?

[Horst]

But that’s still flogging it. A clock is a clock, half is a half I don’t need to study clocks again to know what a half is.

Not all children learn the same way yet we teach them all the same way.

[Pumperthepumper]

*would

[Pumperthepumper]

@Horst

Flogging the same thing over and over again for deeper meaning kills it. School killed my love and enjoyment of reading by year 5 I hated it with a passion. Books just became a boring thing for learning a topic not loving a topic or truly engaging. They where used for skim reading to find what I needed.

I didn’t pick up a book for pleasure again until I was 26.

Anyone else get “greater good” from hot fuzz feelings over deeper meaning and mastery

Flogging the same thing over and over again wood definitely kill any joy for the subject. That’s exactly why we don’t do it - it’s inactive, it teaches memory skills but little else.

What we do is take a concept (in this example, telling the time) and look at how we can use it to apply other areas of knowledge. So we would learn to tell the time, but also use the clock face when we look at fractions, or times tables and so on.

I dont understand the greater good jibe, but I promise you, this isn’t groundbreaking stuff. It’s active learning and knowledge building, that’s it. It’s the very basis of teaching.

[AGreenerShadeofKale]

@Horst, absolutely!😄

[RainAndGreyClouds]

There is a v bright boy on DS class, but his social skills are poor. This would be an excellent taks for him. School is not just about constantly having more academic work to do, especially if you are flying along with that

[Horst]

Flogging the same thing over and over again for deeper meaning kills it. School killed my love and enjoyment of reading by year 5 I hated it with a passion. Books just became a boring thing for learning a topic not loving a topic or truly engaging. They where used for skim reading to find what I needed.

I didn’t pick up a book for pleasure again until I was 26.

Anyone else get “greater good” from hot fuzz feelings over deeper meaning and mastery

[Skysblue]

Well done for resolving it OP. My school introduced this for a while. Then they stopped it, because the ‘brighter’ kids in the class (which in our class was those with well-off supportive parents) were stressed and confused by a leadership role they weren’t ready for, and the ‘less-bright’ kids (in our class these were all from financially struggling single-parent families) resented the children who had been told to teach them and the resentment turned into arguments in the playground / other bad behaviour.

Children shouldn’t be turned on each other in this way, especially not when they’re the same age. It’s a failed teaching strategy that sounds good on paper but is bad for the children.

[Lightswitch123]

@GertrudePerkinsPaperyThing

I would definitely want to have a discussion with the school. I can see what the second poster is saying, but with such a reluctant pupil I don’t think it will help your ds at all.

I’d go in and make it clear he needs to be set extension work and not be teaching another child.

This

[Pumperthepumper]

@mathanxiety

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

This is not 'building knowledge'. You are talking about the basics of teaching analogue clock reading. Big hand, little hand, the fact the the numbers represent different increments...

What 'other things' are you talking about here?

No: it absolutely is building knowledge. If you understand six is half of twelve, that means you understand fractions better. If you see one as thirteen and also a minute and also a second but also an hour, you lose the idea of numbers being fixed. If you can see three as fifteen, you also build on your knowledge of the three and five times tables.

I can’t believe anyone would think that’s less useful than simply being able to tell the time. Especially in these days of digital technology.

[Pumperthepumper]

@mathanxiety

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Setting up straw men (Harry Potter books and what you imagine a teacher might do with reading material) isn't explanation. It's dismissal of challenges to your view of what teaching should consist of and how it should be handled.

But you don’t know what you’re talking about. You can’t explain to me why your ideas would work better than mine.

[mathanxiety]

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Setting up straw men (Harry Potter books and what you imagine a teacher might do with reading material) isn't explanation. It's dismissal of challenges to your view of what teaching should consist of and how it should be handled.

[mathanxiety]

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

This is not 'building knowledge'. You are talking about the basics of teaching analogue clock reading. Big hand, little hand, the fact the the numbers represent different increments...

What 'other things' are you talking about here?

[Pumperthepumper]

@TatianaBis

If I were interested in a discussion I could/would have been more forthcoming.

So what do you want?

[TatianaBis]

If I were interested in a discussion I could/would have been more forthcoming.

[Pumperthepumper]

@TatianaBis

And what will they be doing differently?

Everything, by the sound of it.

But you can’t think of anything specific.

I’m not asking again, if you can’t tell me what I should be doing instead, I’m not interested in further ‘discussion’.

[TatianaBis]

And what will they be doing differently?

Everything, by the sound of it.

[Pumperthepumper]

@mathanxiety

There's always differentiation, surely?

I asked you several times what you meant by ‘extension work’ - could you clarify what you expect that to be?

Done and dusted. I provided a long list of options upthread, and also how extension work can be assessed and monitored. 'Worksheet' presentation of prompts doesn't mean they are not open ended, btw.

I’ve explained pretty comprehensively now what the reasoning is behind the way we teach reading, and maths. I promise you again, handing them a Harry Potter and asking them questions about it is poor, lazy teaching. But you haven’t explained why you think that would work better?

Deeper diving into the curriculum involves flogging it to death. I wouldn't class it as an appropriate method of achieving any goal, for any of the students involved.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that the alternative to worksheets is foisting Harry Potter on students.

My reference to sustained silent reading includes the following elements:
Child chooses reading material.
Teacher can monitor choices, check for progression.
Teacher can ask child various probing questions about reading material, differentiating as appropriate, with each child receiving five minutes of time with the teacher in the course of a week.
Teacher keeps track of each student's choices, progression, responses.
Teacher can talk about his or her own reading.
Teachers can also set up 'book clubs', groups where students discuss their own reading, recommend books for others, ask others about their books. Discussion prompts can be used in these groups, which can be set up according to reading ability.

But if you understand that six is half of twelve, and three is a quarter of twelve, and one doesn’t mean one unit it means one hour and also one minute and also one second and also 13, you can use all of those numbers and all of that communication for other things. You build skills on top of skills.

Such as? "How long before the bell rings and we can bust out of here?"

How much time would you devote to this mind numbing exercise?

Ok. I’m not explaining again why your ideas don’t build knowledge.

[Pumperthepumper]

@TatianaBis

I’ll just choose another school

And what will they be doing differently?