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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say being late all the time isn't a trait you are just rude

999 replies

username4s · 05/09/2021 20:21

AIBU to thinks it's not funny. it's plain rude and shows a lack of respect for the other person?

I often see/hear about people who are always late and it's as if it's just a funny trait of theirs. I don't agree it's shows a lack of care for other peoples time. Are these same people always late for work/school runs/other important commitments or do they suddenly manage to organise themselves and be on time.

OP posts:
Bollindger · 09/09/2021 09:39

Maybe the posters getting cross because of being late, know they hold so responsibility for their own lateness.
If people are already giving they leeway and they still want more and more, then change things.
My friend who is disabled arranged for us to meet her at her home, so we can drive her to meets, so she isn't late and I always arrive 30 mins before we go to HELP with problems, because I like her company and don't want her to miss out.

LukeEvansWife · 09/09/2021 09:43

Not ablest at all. MN is very keen to excuse all bad behaviour as someone having a disability.

In the vast majority of cases it is down to a lack of consideration for others, not because your brain doesn't work that way.

I agree with your point but it is the way you imply that those of us who are ND aren’t able to understand that some people are in fact just lazy

Gothichouse40 · 09/09/2021 09:43

Hmm, I know someone who when we met was always late, but, if going on holiday, had to be somewhere, they could magically be on time. We don't meet very often now. I don't mind keeping in touch but I really got fed up with it, especially when it seems, they can turn up on time for things that suit THEM.

BorderlineHappy · 09/09/2021 10:02

I am wholly appreciative of any disability. No 1, you simply have no idea of the circumstances of other posters, and no. 2, I’m not sure there’s any disability where aggression and rudeness is considered acceptable.

@DottyHarmer
Exactly i had some poster on here yesterday say horrible things about me.
And it seems they want you to be aware of their disability but it doesnt enter their heads you might have problems of your own.
Im disabled myself.
I know this and i plan accordingly.It doesnt give me a get out of jail card to keep people waiting.

dmifflin · 09/09/2021 10:02

@DerbyshireMama

This thread is exactly why I don't like neurotypical people.
The irony is strong!
Rozziie · 09/09/2021 10:20

@lockdownmadnessdotcom

the problem comes in those crucial last minutes when I suddenly remember I've forgotten to do something important

is it important though? Or have you just decided that you "need" to hoover the living room, or "need" to call someone?

I was discussing this thread with my mum yesterday and she was talking about her neighbour who is late for everything. In fact my mum has given her a lift to the railway station and was more worried about her neighbour missing the train than she was! But she said exactly this - she will tell the neighbour 10am and at 9.58 the neighbour decides to phone a friend or load the washing machine. Eventually my mum said 10am does not mean 10.40 and the neighbour is now on time.

If you need to be out by 11, set the alarm on your phone for 10.55 and do not decide to do something "important". Go to the loo, get your coat and bag and go out.

Part of ADHD and neurodiversity is the inability to prioritise. I find it really hard to know if I 'need' to do something or if it's better to just leave it. This is literally part of the disability! In fact, probably the main part!

Your 'solutions' are insulting tbh because who hasn't already thought of that? I do already set an alarm. The issue is when unexpected things crop up. I'm just leaving and my intercom goes. What do I do? Ignore it? It might be important. Should I just go downstairs and see what/who it is? But then it might be a package for me, and I'd have to come back upstairs and waste even more time compared to just letting the delivery person in to bring the package up. It might be a salesperson buzzing to ask or tell me something, and I don't want to get caught up in that. But what if it's something really important, like a neighbour warning me about something like a leak? This decision process is paralysing, and I feel like whatever I do will be wrong.

This is what most neurotypical people don't seem to get. How paralysing it is for something to happen that's even slightly off the plan you'd run through in your head. I do already have a morning timetable timed to the minute. The issue is when it doesn't work.

Iovina · 09/09/2021 11:03

@Gothichouse40

Hmm, I know someone who when we met was always late, but, if going on holiday, had to be somewhere, they could magically be on time. We don't meet very often now. I don't mind keeping in touch but I really got fed up with it, especially when it seems, they can turn up on time for things that suit THEM.
People with ADHD fear Consequences.

Consequences are a Bad Thing. We find them terrifying.

That’s why in work, frequent, important deadlines help us to work under pressure. Having to go in for a performance management meeting with your manager would be a huge Consequence.

It’s why we can get to the airport on time - missing a plane is a huge Consequence.

We hope that our friends and family members are more understanding of our traits. However, if you had said to the friend, “look this lateness is really pissing me off,” then that would probably have helped. Because upsetting a friend to that extent would also be… a huge Consequence!

It’s got nothing to do with being selfish etc. We need these deadlines and the threat of scary consequences to function. And no, it is not a nice way to live. But there we are.

ripples101 · 09/09/2021 11:05

For me, anyone who has a valid reason for being late, that’s fine. Just let me know as soon as you realise you’ll be late. Quick text message is simply being courteous.

The reason can be anything from a one off unexpected occurrence (unexpected being the key word - sticking the washing on and waiting for it to finish isn’t unexpected for example), or indeed it can be an ongoing issue (like the many posters on this thread have explained).

Anyone who is late “just because”, and doesn’t even have the courtesy to let me know and/or apologise are being disrespectful and rude.

For such people who do have an ongoing issue, which let’s be honest, makes life a hell of a lot more complicated and harder for them than it does me having to wait x-amount of time for them to turn up, you genuinely have my sympathy and I don’t think I could ever get angry with you for something that is difficult for you to manage.

However, to such people, I would say that your own frustration in regards to this topic should also be aimed towards those who are always late for no valid reason whatsoever.

DottyHarmer · 09/09/2021 11:09

That is all quite understandable and I really understand.

Today I have to leave the house at 12. I have done nothing all morning except await my hour of departure. That is what a chronically punctual person does - be ready two hours early.

DottyHarmer · 09/09/2021 11:10

Sorry, my post was to Iovina .

Rozziie · 09/09/2021 11:16

@DottyHarmer

That is all quite understandable and I really understand.

Today I have to leave the house at 12. I have done nothing all morning except await my hour of departure. That is what a chronically punctual person does - be ready two hours early.

You clearly don't understand at all, and you don't want to.
Recessed · 09/09/2021 11:20

Yup! Arseholes most of them!

SpeedRunParent · 09/09/2021 11:56

[quote DontMakeMeShushYou]@SpeedRunParent
That's interesting that you can recognise that but may i ask why you don't learn from that insight and add 50% more time to cater for your lack of ability to correctly estimate the time needed?
I was considering this very thing today - why simply allowing extra time doesn't help and how could I explain why it doesn't.
I think it comes back, at least in part, to the distraction trait - the more time I have the more opportunity there is to get distracted. If I leave it to the last minute to get ready or do something, the less opportunity there is for for distractions to creep in and derail me but then there's also no room for error.[/quote]
I do recognise that propensity toward 'losing time' when you deliberately allow extra, it definitely happens to me too.
I think I got my timing in better order when I found myself faced with 3 primary aged children - including one with severe physical disability and one with autism. It became impossible to 'wing it'. Everything became like a military operation: up at this time, breakfast at this time, shoes on by this time etc. Although my 3 are all teens now, the need to invest time in planning ahead ( the writing of lists) has resolved any punctuality issues I ever had.
My autistic teen has marked personal organisation challenges due to executive function defects and he has had to strategise to avoid 'last-minute' chaos events. He does have the advantage of autism that means 'doing the right thing' ( being on time) is very important for him though.
All I really mean to say is, your lateness may well have a neurological basis but don't feel it is hopeless, there are ways to beat it if you want to.

AntiSocialDistancer · 09/09/2021 12:03

That was a really nice post speedrunparent up to the last line - "there are ways to beat it if you want to."

If you thought of something your son found incredibly challenging, more so than timekeeping, and a teacher said the same to him would you consider it supportive?

MeandT · 09/09/2021 19:00

Blimey! @DottyHarmer addresses those who 'claim' that their lateness is an inherent trait - I assume she's talking about those of us with a medical diagnosis from a psychiatrist?

What does she need, to supervise the MRI for each of us in turn so she can issue approved friends with an 'oh yes Dotty sees that your brain is actually physically different now' sticker? I know I have ADD because I got to massive doses of methylphenidate and they made bugger all difference. Methylphenidate is a dopamine reuptake inhibitor. That proved my body just plain doesn't make any dopamine. I need to take a dopamine stimulant to achieve the metal state you have when you open your eyes in the morning. Have a look at what makes your NT body release dopamine to make you feel good about your achievements - now think about a lifetime of never getting any when you do those things. Feeling good from dopamine is what keeps NT people going back to positive patterns - being on time, remembering to put the bins out, taking the laundry out the machine and getting it dry and ironed, going to bed on time, eating lunch.

Without medication, I can regularly forget to eat, wee, exercise, look after myself, do regular little tasks - because there is no mental 'reward' released. So that fuzzy warm feeling you get when you arrive somewhere on time, have the kids bags all ready on a Sunday evening, get your ducks in a row...I just don't get that. Ever. Not mentally don't understand it, just physically never receive it. Having medication now actually helps me build towards wanting to repeat those activities and patterns, because after 4 decades of never getting them, I finally can.

Without medication, you telling me to sort my act out and always be on time is as much help as me shoving someone with anxiety into a lecture hall of 400 people and telling them 'don't worry, it's fine, all you have to do is talk.' Or telling someone with depression to 'cheer up'.

In fact, I absolutely do try to consider other people's anxieties with my scheduling and not put them in that position because of my timing...I'm late for stuff that benefits me far more often then I am to meet ups with them, I assure you. I don't do it on purpose.

I'm addressing this in detail because every time anyone says 'we'll make allowances for you', it seems the allowance is to say 'try this strategy that works for an NT person to be on time'. And also because lots of people seem to think there's a massive cohort of lazy/late on purpose people. I'm less convinced about that BECAUSE when you think about it, how many people do you know who really regularly struggle with it? Is it 30%, or is it more like 5-10%? Do they tell you that they TRY to get it right, but seem to always drop the ball, no matter what. If that's the case, the chance is FAR higher that they have ADD/ASD brain chemistry that doesn't process reward/timeline/scheduling in the same way as yours than that they are obnoxiously selfish. Of all the people I've ever met, I can think of one or two who were really uninvested in turning up on time. But many more who struggle with several of those aspects of organisation and timing that sit squarely with ADD (or dopamine deficiency syndrome, if it were renamed with a more accurate medical term). And try and try, but repeated fail with reliable timekeeping.

You got quite upset about me comparing my condition to someone born without a leg. Yet I was born unable to produce dopamine. A T1 diabetic cannot produce insulin. Why are their two conditions valid to you as a limitation that counts, but mine isn't just because you can't see it? It's not my inability to timekeep that has parallels with someone in a wheelchair, it's my inability to produce dopamine. That is a medical limitation. My limitation just results in you banging away incessantly issuing instructions to me to make my brain work like your brain. It won't (without medication at least).

I fully understand that my condition impacts all around me. I work very hard on minimising that. But my god, the mental pasting I've had for 40 years from people like you on the occasions I drop the ball - because as you've demonstrated here, people like you always assume that everyone is just like you, and people like me (diagnosed or not) couldn't POSSIBLY be wired any different - is every bit as unpleasant as everything you've written in this thread. It's also very apparent that regardless of the evidence presented, you feel that I should just be able to switch on 'caring' about things in the same way you do because they are important in society. I can't. There's no raw material to work with without the medication. That chemical 'leg' is missing. That's not an excuse. That's just a medical fact.

I have strategies. One of them is to be so busy, that every waking moment is crammed with stuff to do, so EVERYTHING is a short deadline, because that stimulates the adrenaline, endorphins and cortisol to act in place of dopamine instead. Rather than 'I'll do this because it's a good idea and I will feel content with my achievement' I get 'OMG if you don't leave now social services will take your children away/you'll lose your job/the electricity will be cut off/no one can eat this week/the client bid will be lost/your child will not be invited again'...and so on.

It's quite exhausting in comparison to dopamine-driven reward 'normal', and certainly the polar opposite of sitting around being 'ready' because that in itself makes you feel good! And it is also the reason behind others trying to explain to you that having buckets of spare time allowed does not actually improve the outcome. And why there is no ability to prioritise, because nothing generates 'reward', even when you get it right.

But when I read "Today I have to leave the house at 12. I have done nothing all morning except await my hour of departure. That is what a chronically punctual person does - be ready two hours early.", actually, I'm left wondering whether we've got it all wrong, and whether it is, in fact, me carrying you in society? Because sitting around for 2 hours doing nothing at all in order to be on time for the next thing is surely a massive underachievement in a day? If I did that, I could only get 4 things done. Perhaps your perspective is so skewed that you feel 4 things done well punctually is better than 18 things done and one of them 15 minutes late?

There we will, again, have to agree to disagree. But at least I hope I have explained why ADD bodies work the way they do (and some elements of ASD can be similar), and why applying your strategies doesn't help them unless the condition has actually been identified and medicated effectively.

I do look forward to receiving the invite to your MRI assessment so I can be awarded my 'oh yes, you do actually have a chemical shortfall' badge, I'll save the date!

and @Gothichouse40 if you want to understand why those with ADD (even if undiagnosed) have inconsistent abilities to turn up on time for different events, have a read of this - there's a good section on the measured improvement of time estimation for specific (monetary in this case) rewards:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6556068/

To say being late all the time isn't a trait you are just rude
Kanaloa · 09/09/2021 19:05

@MeandT

Hi, not sure if you’re aware but I think you may have included a photo of your kids? If it’s supposed to be there ignore me, just a heads up.

enragedhedgehog · 09/09/2021 19:49

Someone mentioned people in China having to be in time or they don't eat and it being a symptom of the west having too much time on their hands.

The last article I read said about six per cent of children in China have adhd and often don't get medicated or the help they need because if a stigma and their outcomes in adulthood aren't that great, I think the article I read said their five to ten times more likely to be commit crime and be incarcerated as well an increased chance of becoming addicts or killings themselves. It's very much a problem there too.

enragedhedgehog · 09/09/2021 19:52

Ignore last one. I think I actually already posted similar last night and forgot 🤦🏽‍♀️

MeandT · 09/09/2021 19:57

Thank you @Kanaloa... slightly worse than that as not even mine! I reported the instant I saw fat fingers had picked up 2 pictures and they were very quick on it - thankyou @mumsnet!

Rozziie · 09/09/2021 20:33

@MeandT thanks for posting...that's all super interesting. I hadn't really looked into the 'whys' of the condition but it all makes total sense. Currently sitting in a messy apartment with stuff absolutely everywhere, which drives me mad, but I just don't seem to be able to really have the ability to keep it tidy and orderly! I seem to need external pressure like someone coming round for dinner to be able to tidy up and make it nice :(

MeandT · 09/09/2021 23:29

Flowers @Rozziie! If you get no internal buzz/reward from tidying for 10 minutes, why would you? Other people can look at a messy room and feel overwhelmed, but at least go 'well if I spend 10 minutes, I'll have dealt with half of it, and that will feel better. Then I can do the rest tomorrow.' You and I will feel meh about getting anything done, so why start? The motivations are all negative...I'll be embarrassed if someone else comes round and judges me on it looking like this, so I'd better make it look nicer. It's not a very positive reward cycle!

In a way, I think it's easier having no dopamine at all than just an abnormally low level though...when you look at that list top left, if your body can make a bit, the activities that will kick it more are things like:

  • spending hours on computer games
  • buying lots of clothes, makeup, or over-exercising
  • overeating, over drinking, or using illegal drugs for your high
  • gambling

In comparison to that, getting no more buzz from winning 'team of the year' than I do from completing my ironing (i.e. none at all) is probably getting off lightly! I would get a bit of a kick from the team thing - as it overlaps into oxytocin. Being appreciated feels like being loved, so I do get motivation from this. But then I also get accused of being 'needy' because it helps to have regular check ins to be reassured my work is good and on the right track (and also provides a mini-deadline to ensure I don't lose time!) Someone NT in my role could be far more self-regulating, both in use of their time and awareness they were producing good stuff. But having someone ELSE tell me that today's progress has been positive kicks a brain positive that doesn't exist if I have to rely on my own "yessss" response to competing the task, because that box is empty. The other motivators are all negative ones - don't mess this up, don't get told off, don't be judged for being late, don't be judged for being messy, don't get shamed, don't get humiliated. Or the cortisol buzz of working flat out to a critical deadline. I respond to them, but they are knackering! I also take ridiculous risks to get the adrenaline buzz...less so now than when I was younger, but that chemical works just fine 🤣 It's well documented that it's not healthy in regular and huge doses though!

I think it's just me and you left on the thread now anyway. But things I've found which are helpful to motivate me doing the dull (to me) stuff that doesn't generate the dopamine others get from achieving it generally include doing the task in company, since I won't personally get any achievement buzz from it. So going to an exercise class is better than a video online alone; agreeing to spend the next 20 minutes doing my expenses at the same time as a colleague; folding laundry with the family, not solo; everyone tidying the house together; having someone turn up to chaperone me away from my absorbing spreadsheet to attend the weekly meeting on time ;)

By being 'all in it together' on the stuff I'm poor at, at least I get a bit of an oxytocin kick (and it reduces the risk of 'poor me' victim thoughts drifting in because, god forbid, I have to do something I don't like and I don't even feel good as a result of getting it out the way!). It also helps reduce some of the stressful negative motivators because I won't need to have it pointed out to me that I've still not submitted expenses...win!

So if there's anyone left on the thread other than me and rozziie, and you've recognised these 'can't be on time/not organised/doesn't get round to stuff' traits in a friend or colleague, you could probably really help them out by going and doing the difficult stuff ALONGSIDE them, it might go a long way! x

AntiSocialDistancer · 10/09/2021 07:55

@meandt I'm still here! Just grateful the thread is going quiet. Your posts are really interesting and insightful thank you Flowers

MeandT · 10/09/2021 14:51

A (not so) quick thought for
@beastlyslumber @ISaySteadyOn @OneStepOut @flibberyjibbery8 @Bouledeneige

I think you have all also mentioned that you have ADD/ADHD/ASD conditions of some sort or another (and apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick on any of you!).

I've written (at length Wink) about my personal experiences of ADD and how life is as someone who apparently doesn't produce any dopamine at all.

I really appreciate you all sharing your experiences of having OVERCOME socially problematic symptoms of ADD (like being reliably on time). It is both heartening to hear there are those for whom it is possible to overcome, and of course a sage reminder that none of us are the same, even with the same condition - we all experience it slightly differently.

I assume that most of you fall in the camp of 'lower but not zero' dopamine production, as you've been able to train yourselves onto getting a meaningful reward kick from being on time, crossing off things from the to do list, breaking projects down into small tasks so you do get the dopamine release from crossing off each small achievement along the way, etc. I salute you all, and one benefit of my natural (if inappropriate?) optimism is that I haven't given up hope that with medication, now I can try yet again at these NT-leaning lists of 'life hacks'.

Maybe this time I WILL get a release of dopamine from getting items crossed off the list (not just an empty feeling, and maybe a vague sense of relief that it's one less thing to be f*d up!).

You have clearly all found positive ways to kick your levels of dopamine up for these tasks and achievements, and that sense of reward for always being on time and getting things done is there. That's awesome AND is so much more positive than the risks which are apparently higher for you than they are for me of getting dopamine surges through gambling, drug, shopping, food, screen etc. addiction...no small feat.

So I will try not to roll my eyes next time I see a list of allegedly ADD focussed 'tips' to improve my organisation, which is basically set alarms, make lists etc etc. We are all different and they clearly HAVE worked for you due to your chemistry with ADD, even though I'm left with blank/nothing with mine - even when I do them religiously. You HAVE helped me see the difference in why it works for some, but still not all of us. And with medication, sticking with it long enough to form the new habits I've never succeeded with before DOES have a chance of making a difference!

Armed with that knowledge though, I am also going to look at what habits and strategies I can put in place to do the stuff I find dull/society requires me to do/is essential to function effectively which gives me a kick of the OTHER chemicals that do still work in me - the oxytocin, endorphins and seratonin. I know exercising regularly has always been critical for me to function well, but I've always treated it as the reward for doing my task list. So on a bad day, I never get there...so starts the downward spiral. Anchoring smaller amounts of exercise throughout the day to smaller task completion might be a good proxy for 'dopamine reward'...I'm going to try it. Equally having the superfocus to keep going on a big project, but not stopping to get out for a walk and to eat properly, is clearly counterproductive, but a habit I've always struggled to break...concentrating on stopping to get that seratonin hit has just gone up in my estimation, because it can replace the dopamine of having done 4 mini-sections I've been working on, but feel no better about in-and-of themselves. And I've also registered that asking someone to do dull (for me anyway) tasks like expenses, cleaning, leaving the current thing and moving to the next thing on time and so on ARE definitely improved by the social, oxytocin-led nudge of doing them with someone else. I think that will help me see it as less of a sign of weakness, needing to ask for help from the uber-organised completer-finishers around me. So I will ask them to schedule joint expenses/performance review writing/desk tidying sessions more often now, and if I'm brave, even explain to them why I need their help to keep me accountable on this stuff. (Even if I may still need to put on my noise-cancelling headphones and blinker myself off from the tea rounds to stay 'in the zone' and not get distracted when I'm in hyperfocus, deeply productive and detailed mode ;)

I think this will be really important, as I'm painfully aware that I won't be able to medicate with amphetamines forever, due to the heart implications. So having them for now to help establish healthy dopamine habits is useful, but tying routines to rewards that kick the other 3 chemicals might make it more positively sustainable once I come off medication too.

And even @DottyHarmer has given me pause for thought...I have rammed my life with deadlines because the cortisol drive of being shamed provides the power to get me to do stuff (rather than the dopamine 'I've done a good job' that you are able to lean on). So leaving me alone all day with 2 things to do has historically been a great recipe for massive procrastination and distraction, as I never benefitted from that 'yeah, I've got it done' endpoint. But slowing down is no bad thing, and if I can find the ways to use those other 3 chemicals to do the work of your dopamine, I may not be 2 hours ready...but I may be able to habitualise the future reward of turning up on time, EVERY time, in a way that has always eluded me.

I'm not giving up, so thank you all for a productive discussion which has opened my eyes to how I can use my body chemistry to more positive effect, even after 4 decades. I think that will be a huge bonus, especially as seratonin levels start to drop with menopause. That's a whole different chemical challenge we will all have to face, but I think I have a new perspective about how to approach that too, as a direct result of this.

Thank you all.

theworstoftimes · 10/09/2021 15:00

How do you know you don't produce dopamine?

MeandT · 10/09/2021 15:01

*oxytocin levels drop with menopause, rather! Maybe I'll join the WI to deal with that one? A group activity to boost oxytocin feel good through chatting, creating, and sharing stories.... I'll be sure to join the drop-in group though, not be keyholder for a 7pm start Grin

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