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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Am I a Karen?

375 replies

Magnoliamarigold · 31/08/2021 12:14

Currently in a debate with a 19 year old nephew about transgender issues.

I believe gender is a social construct. But:

I don't believe in puberty blockers for 10 year olds.
I'm currently on my third IVF cycle and for this reason I'm not convinced young people (over 18) should take hormone replacement therapy.

Been reliably informed this makes me a Karen. AIBU?

OP posts:
DrSbaitso · 02/09/2021 08:13

If you truly believe nobody would ever call a 45 year old black woman a Karen because the term is so sensitively used by only the most righteous of anti-racists, I've got a bridge to sell you.

VladmirsPoutine · 02/09/2021 08:30

If the shoe doesn't fit then don't wear it. The type of damage a Karen can cause yet still be the 'victim' when it's all said and done is terrifying. Unlike KKK flag waving white supremacists, Karens are woven into the fabric of every day life. They're your colleagues, managers, teachers, nurses etc etc...

ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/09/2021 08:41

Did the shoe fit in the situation that OP described? Was OP a sort of undercover KKK operative there?

Bloodypunkrockers · 02/09/2021 08:43

Are the posters talking about race really missing the point

This isn't america. The OP has nothing do with race

Posters have explained over and over what Karen means in this context

Those who use it as "shorthand" for whatever are a bit thick and. It worth arguing with

Mousetown · 02/09/2021 08:49

@VladmirsPoutine

If the shoe doesn't fit then don't wear it. The type of damage a Karen can cause yet still be the 'victim' when it's all said and done is terrifying. Unlike KKK flag waving white supremacists, Karens are woven into the fabric of every day life. They're your colleagues, managers, teachers, nurses etc etc...
The word you are looking for is racists. Racists are everywhere and cause damage.
DrSbaitso · 02/09/2021 09:02

And a lot of them aren't female.

VladmirsPoutine · 02/09/2021 09:09

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Did the shoe fit in the situation that OP described? Was OP a sort of undercover KKK operative there?
I posted around the 1st or 2nd page that what the OP described had nothing to do with being a 'Karen'. The thread has considerably moved on so of course I am aware that the shoe doesn't fit in the context of the OP.
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/09/2021 09:11

In that case is the use of it justified, in your opinion?

VladmirsPoutine · 02/09/2021 09:47

In this instance no but when a Karen is being a Karen? Absolutely. Though that said, it's very tedious that most of the discourse is about the term Karen rather than focusing on the specific violence white women can enact on POC.

DrSbaitso · 02/09/2021 09:56

@VladmirsPoutine

In this instance no but when a Karen is being a Karen? Absolutely. Though that said, it's very tedious that most of the discourse is about the term Karen rather than focusing on the specific violence white women can enact on POC.
Well, prepare yourself for a lot of frustration. The overwhelming majority of people who use this slur aren't doing it in what you consider to be the RIGHT way, so it's getting the "wrong" meaning despite your noble crusade.
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 02/09/2021 09:58

In this instance no but when a Karen is being a Karen?

The only way I see someone is being a Karen is when their name is actually Karen.

Also, it's understandable that you want people to focus on some forms of racism, but why derail your own argument by using a misogynistic slur?

AuntieJoyce · 02/09/2021 10:10

@VladmirsPoutine

In this instance no but when a Karen is being a Karen? Absolutely. Though that said, it's very tedious that most of the discourse is about the term Karen rather than focusing on the specific violence white women can enact on POC.
Other threads are available
DrSbaitso · 02/09/2021 10:11

I remember distinctly when Karen was a white, 40-something woman with a highlighted blonde bob who was bolshy with customer service staff and always demanded to see the manager. I thought it was a weirdly specific stereotype. What did her hairstyle have to do with it? It was about being assertive, nothing to do with racism.

Of course, as with all lazy and stupid misogynistic slurs, it was almost immediately hurled at any woman the idiot hurler wanted to shut up without having to do any thinking. It was, indeed, mostly used online when you couldn't possibly know someone's race, sex, age, hairdo or frequency of managerial interactions. I once saw someone accused of being a Karen who turned out to be a Middle Eastern man. Oops.

After about five minutes (as long as it took for the slur to take hold of all women and, indeed, some men from the Middle East), it was realised that Karen was looking a bit stupid as a slur, so she had better become a racist as well in order to validate it for the thickos who use it. Someone tell OP's nephew. As before, if you think nobody would ever use it on a 40-something black woman who won't shut up when she's told to, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Insisting that the problem is just that people aren't aren't the slur in the RIGHT way (and what do you expect from anyone stupid enough to use it at all? What, you thought it was the sign of an agile mind?) misses the point completely, and won't change the way it's being used.

If someone is being a myopic, hateful, bigoted racist arsewipe, why wouldn't you use a term like that? At the very least people will all know what you mean, as opposed to a lazy catch-all term that is apparently always being used incorrectly.

ChaneySays · 02/09/2021 10:39

All this does is keep hateful terms active. How can we tackle racism, sexism, misogyny hate if we say it is allowed in certain circumstances. It’s madness.

I actually find myself agreeing with this. However, none of the women I've encountered complaining about the Karen stereotype were too vocal about the whole 'gammon' thing, which I always found a bit distasteful as many people apparently seem to think that insults based on skin colour are fine so long as they're only directed at certain groups. But I digress.

As I said, I do find the whole 'Karen' thing a bit distasteful, but I'm probably more alarmed that the focus has became all about the feelings of the white women it's being used against. Of course it's not pleasant but it pales in comparison IMO to the actions of people like Amy Cooper (which could've resulted in a police shooting) and to the ingrained racism that the original 'Karen' character displayed to serving staff and people 'beneath' her.

In many ways, the Karen stereotype is not dissimilar to the derisive stereotype of the 'straight white male', except it's usually used less venomously and more in the context of "oh, stop being a Karen".

No doubt it's being used a little unpleasantly at times, but I'm still a bit hmmm that there seems to be zero focus on the actual original 'Karens' whose behaviour created the stereotype. Without people like Amy Cooper there would be no Karen meme in the first place.

VladmirsPoutine · 02/09/2021 10:45

Precisely, all this fallout over whether or not it's misogyny and sexist etc is again just focusing on the feelings of white women - not that I'm surprised because for anything to be a feminist issue it has to primarily affect white women before its addressed but it's just an ongoing cycle.

DrSbaitso · 02/09/2021 10:48

the feelings of the white women it's being used against.

OP is BAME. It's a slur against all women, even if the righteous users know it shouldn't be (ffs). That's the point.

Bloodypunkrockers · 02/09/2021 10:52

@VladmirsPoutine

In this instance no but when a Karen is being a Karen? Absolutely. Though that said, it's very tedious that most of the discourse is about the term Karen rather than focusing on the specific violence white women can enact on POC.
"When a Karen is being a Karen"

Listen to yourself

If your name is Karen, then you're a Karen

That's it

Do you really think all the irrelevant posts and the takeover by one particular poster, making this thread something it's not, does anything to change anyone minds.

ChaneySays · 02/09/2021 20:24

I'm sorry but to put it bluntly what's good for the goose is good for the gander. I've heard so many feminists/academics/middle class white women bang on about straight white males (the vast majority of men in the west) and yet god forbid somebody use a mocking phrase that happens to be the name of a small minority of women.

Didn't see any complaints on here when the diversity officer of Goldman Sachs was in the news for tweeting #killallwhitemen and I've never seen anybody complain about the stereotypes bandied around about straight white men. If it's unacceptable to single out certain groups then people should be offended about the above, which they're not. I imagine the case would be entirely different if people started openly disparaging lesbians or gay black men instead. Hypocrisy plain and simple.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 02/09/2021 21:09

I really don’t have an issue with racist women being called names…serves em right

What I don’t understand is why its someone’s actual name

Its like the straight white male thing….straight white male isn’t derogatory, male and pale is maybe edging towards derogatory but at no point is a mans actual name used

LizzieW1969 · 02/09/2021 21:18

What I don’t understand is why its someone’s actual name

^This is the key point for me. We’ve heard about how upsetting it can be for women who are actually called Karen. That should be enough of a reason not to use the name that way. There are other ways to call out racism. Like, name and shame them, with their own names!

TheKeatingFive · 02/09/2021 21:19

That should be enough of a reason not to use the name that way. There are other ways to call out racism. Like, name and shame them, with their own names!

Exactly

ChaneySays · 02/09/2021 23:07

Its like the straight white male thing….straight white male isn’t derogatory, male and pale is maybe edging towards derogatory but at no point is a mans actual name used

Well, the phrase isn't offensive, much like 'black man' isn't offensive. It's the things that are said about both groups.

mustlovegin · 02/09/2021 23:16

If it's unacceptable to single out certain groups then people should be offended about the above, which they're not

Certain groups appear to be fair game for some people ATM sadly

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2021 09:46

After about five minutes (as long as it took for the slur to take hold of all women and, indeed, some men from the Middle East), it was realised that Karen was looking a bit stupid as a slur, so she had better become a racist as well in order to validate it for the thickos who use it. Someone tell OP's nephew. As before, if you think nobody would ever use it on a 40-something black woman who won't shut up when she's told to, I've got a bridge to sell you.

Insisting that the problem is just that people aren't aren't the slur in the RIGHT way (and what do you expect from anyone stupid enough to use it at all? What, you thought it was the sign of an agile mind?) misses the point completely, and won't change the way it's being used.

Indeed.

ChaneySays · 03/09/2021 21:24

So you have decided that these women don’t matter.

Whip is next on your list of people who don’t matter? Because that’s a slippery slope.

I never said that. But what is it people say on here....losing one's privilege can feel like oppression? If white women aren't used to being called on their behaviour it's not surprising that they often don't take too well to it.

p.s. I have no intention of whipping anybody, even 'Karens', so I don't know where that came from. 🤣

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