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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Am I a Karen?

375 replies

Magnoliamarigold · 31/08/2021 12:14

Currently in a debate with a 19 year old nephew about transgender issues.

I believe gender is a social construct. But:

I don't believe in puberty blockers for 10 year olds.
I'm currently on my third IVF cycle and for this reason I'm not convinced young people (over 18) should take hormone replacement therapy.

Been reliably informed this makes me a Karen. AIBU?

OP posts:
Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:16

DrSbaitso, I’ve no idea, you’re the one who was proud of the three syllable virago. Here’s a tip: it’s a forum, not an essay, you don’t need perfect spelling. And everyone’s posts are in the open, that’s what makes it a forum.

DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 20:17

OP, if your nephew intends to transition, I don't think that can be done without hormones.

Is she aware that she will also be subjected to the Karen term if she transitions and presents as female?

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:17

You’ve insulted every woman called Karen for a start. Call a racist a racist, don’t use misogynistic language which you’ve been told is hurtful to others as you instantly lose any argument you try to make.

You being a victim of racism does not give you or anyone else the right to abuse others.

No quotes of my supposed insults then? Thought not. Who have I called Karen?

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:22

You’ve insulted every woman called Karen for a start. Call a racist a racist, don’t use misogynistic language which you’ve been told is hurtful to others as you instantly lose any argument you try to make.

Hopefully you’ll also get around to reprimanding the poster who called me a cunt?

DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 20:23

@Meraas

DrSbaitso, I’ve no idea, you’re the one who was proud of the three syllable virago. Here’s a tip: it’s a forum, not an essay, you don’t need perfect spelling. And everyone’s posts are in the open, that’s what makes it a forum.
You're obsessed with that, aren't you? I'll have to guess at why that is. Or why you're so worried that unless you tell us over and over, we won't ever realise that you know any three-syllable words.
grey12 · 31/08/2021 20:24

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Go read "urban dictionary " definition

Some people misuse it

It was a term created by a sad man on Reddit who hated his ex wife. Hope that helps.

Do you really want to know the derivation of every word you use?! Shall we talk about the word gay?

That may be so and he was an *sshole. But right now the term has evolved and it means something different

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:27

Not obsessed, just amused. You revealed your whole character with your rhapsody (squee, 3 syllables!) about the word virago.

apalledandshocked · 31/08/2021 20:31

@Magnoliamarigold
Ignoring the semantic debate over the K word... I was going to say that it sounded like your nephew being a slightly irritating 19 year old (and before anyone jumps on me for being ageist I was 19 once and probably similar...)
But given this..
"We have been having conversations around transgender issues for several days now, but the coming out as trans kind of blindsided me - and is a conversation that could only be had with me rather than the parents (my older brother and sister in law). She (wants me to refer to her as ‘she’) came out as bisexual two years ago and is feminine but I didn’t really see it coming.
For context, we are a black and mixed race and fairly conservative church going family. ‘Karen’ as far as I am aware was used as a way of saying ‘old fashioned’."

It sounds like she was (unknown to you) struggling with this personally and therefore took your (reasonable) arguments against puberty blockers in young children as a personal attack on her/her identity. So the two of you were effectively having two different conversations without realising it. I don't know much about the medical side of things, but my gut feeling would be that I wouldn't be approaching it from that angle. Since she is 19 (and not your child anyway) you cant have any say in whether they take them anyway. You could advice, but if they think your advice is part of you not supporting them they wouldn't want to listen anyway. So I would be first concentrating on showing that you accept them and still care about them etc etc (and probably importantly - respect their opinions as an adult). I would only try giving advice/opinions on puberty blockers much further down the line - and then from a position of listening/asking questions (what do you hope the Puberty Blockers will do, etc etc; what problems are you experiencing now). That also has the advantage of not backing them into a corner.

apalledandshocked · 31/08/2021 20:33

@Magnoliamarigold And absolutely yes do your own research and share it with them in the future (and your own experiences with IVF) but probably not right now... and ideally only when asked or at the least very gently...

ripples101 · 31/08/2021 20:34

Well isn’t this interesting.

A bunch of posters arguing with each other and playing silly buggers. Trying to get one over other posters and generally feeling antagonism towards others who are contributing to this thread.

There is an irony here. The OP, either intentionally or unintentionally, has laid a bait. And look at you ladies go. Sniping at each other.

DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 20:35

@Meraas

Not obsessed, just amused. You revealed your whole character with your rhapsody (squee, 3 syllables!) about the word virago.
The only amusing thing is you squaring up to me telling me you could outspell me any day, then plonking a garbled shitpost and declaring that "it’s a forum, not an essay, you don’t need perfect spelling".

You are clearly enraged and obsessed by my throwaway use of the word "virago". We will all have to guess at why. But it might give some insight as to why words have power, and are important, and "Karen" is a misogynistic slur. OP is also BAME and she got hit with it.

Neotraditional · 31/08/2021 20:39

@Meraas

You’ve insulted every woman called Karen for a start. Call a racist a racist, don’t use misogynistic language which you’ve been told is hurtful to others as you instantly lose any argument you try to make.

Hopefully you’ll also get around to reprimanding the poster who called me a cunt?

I haven’t seen anyone use that term so I can’t comment. You however, said the following in defence of using the name Karen as a means of describing racist, while women:

**Racism is soul destroying, most people have no idea, and if someone wants to call the racist a Karen then that's their prerogative.

It isn’t their prerogative, or yours, to use an offensive term. Especially when complaining about people being offensive to you! Are you honestly that dim?

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:41

Not sure what power you think the word virago has, seems like a pretty old-fashioned, innocuous word to me. What was funny was that you were convinced only you know the meaning. It just revealed how superior you think you are.

Funny how you don’t think people calling me a cunt is not ‘squaring up’.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:45

I haven’t seen anyone use that term so I can’t comment. You however, said the following in defence of using the name Karen as a means of describing racist, while women:

How convenient. If you want to see it, just scroll up, it’s there.

It isn’t their prerogative, or yours, to use an offensive term. Especially when complaining about people being offensive to you!

Funny how you were able to scour the thread looking for my posts! Of course it’s their prerogative. Unless you’re at the receiving end of racist abuse, you have no idea how you would react. And I’ve not called anyone a Karen.

Are you honestly that dim?

And yet you say I’m the one insulting people?

Raggedyanabell · 31/08/2021 20:45

Yep, who cares if I’m called a cunt. Just another BAME person with the temerity to have an opinion.

What are you getting out of misrepresenting peoples posts? It's so dishonest. That poster wasn't calling you a cunt at all they were talking about using misogyny as a response to racism. She was clearly saying misogyny is cunty behaviour.
I also don't know why you keep misrepresenting peoples criticism of misogyny as them "dictating" or believing that BAME people shouldn't express opinions. Yes many of us have the "temerity to have an opinion" but not all of us happen to have the same opinion as you.

DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 20:46

@Meraas

Not sure what power you think the word virago has, seems like a pretty old-fashioned, innocuous word to me. What was funny was that you were convinced only you know the meaning. It just revealed how superior you think you are.

Funny how you don’t think people calling me a cunt is not ‘squaring up’.

I didn't know it had power! I used it in a throwaway and slightly sarcastic comment. I'd have completely forgotten about it if you hadn't been bringing it up like a dodgy kebab in every post since.

Clearly it has enormous power! If I'd known that, I'd have used it sooner. You're bloody obsessed!

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:47

@Raggedyanabell

Yep, who cares if I’m called a cunt. Just another BAME person with the temerity to have an opinion.

What are you getting out of misrepresenting peoples posts? It's so dishonest. That poster wasn't calling you a cunt at all they were talking about using misogyny as a response to racism. She was clearly saying misogyny is cunty behaviour.
I also don't know why you keep misrepresenting peoples criticism of misogyny as them "dictating" or believing that BAME people shouldn't express opinions. Yes many of us have the "temerity to have an opinion" but not all of us happen to have the same opinion as you.

Well, she clarified her post saying she was calling me ‘cuntish’, not a cunt, thinking she was being clever. Or did you conveniently miss that too?
DrSbaitso · 31/08/2021 20:47

Hit post too soon. Final point: I didn't see anyone calling you a cunt. If I had, I'd have reported it. Clearly that's not OK.

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:49

I didn't know it had power! I used it in a throwaway and slightly sarcastic comment. I'd have completely forgotten about it if you hadn't been bringing it up like a dodgy kebab in every post since.

Well you could say the same about my comment about out-spelling you. Or did you think I was suggesting a spelling bee?

Raggedyanabell · 31/08/2021 20:50

I said we shouldn’t be cunts to each other 🤷‍♀️

Oh dear, how could you @Mousetown 😱!!

Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:50

@DrSbaitso

Hit post too soon. Final point: I didn't see anyone calling you a cunt. If I had, I'd have reported it. Clearly that's not OK.
It’s ok, apparently she meant cuntish.
Meraas · 31/08/2021 20:51

@Raggedyanabell

I said we shouldn’t be cunts to each other 🤷‍♀️

Oh dear, how could you @Mousetown 😱!!

Except she didn’t say that.

Her post is still up there (in a quoted post).

Mousetown · 31/08/2021 20:53

Well, she clarified her post saying she was calling me ‘cuntish’, not a cunt

I clarified my post to say I was describing cuntish behaviour. I said that people shouldn’t be cunts to each other. Sorry you misunderstood.

ChaneySays · 31/08/2021 20:54

I'm currently on my third IVF cycle and for this reason I'm not convinced young people (over 18) should take hormone replacement therapy.

I'm assuming you mean masculising/feminising hormone therapy? HRT is usually for menopausal women or men like my partner who had a testosterone deficiency requiring injection to bring him back to a normal level (lost his sex drive and was really tired all the time).

ChaneySays · 31/08/2021 20:55

If a young male has a testorone deficiency he should absolutely take hormone replacement IMO as it not only makes life miserable being deficient but is also bad for bone density and heart health etc.