To be upset Mum friends from school have done this?

[Yup83]

There is a group of four of us that often go for coffee after school drop off. Last term one of them suggested we all go camping sometime, which I thought was a really nice idea.

Whilst talking with one of them the other day I found out that the three of them and their families are all going camping, but I wasn't invited.

I feel pretty hurt as I thought we were all good friends, and also especially as I was originally invited when it was first mentioned.

I'm not really sure what to do about it, with school starting back I'm bound to see them all again and it's been playing on my mind. I don't really know if I should say something, sack them off and put my energy towards other friends who don't exclude me or try to make more effort with them.

I also feel pretty stupid that at the ripe old age of 38 I'm being "left out", feels pretty childish.

@memberofthewedding

Posters on MN often say that if a group of people snub or appear to dislike you then the problem must be with YOU rather than the group!

Wrong.

If the group are one of these tight little cliques with a "queen bee" then they are probably going to buzz along after her, rather than pointing out that someone is being excluded. I have never been a school mum as I have no children but if they are anything like the cliques in Motherland then Im not surprised at anything that happens in the hellscape of the school gate.

But @memberofthewedding, ‘school mums’ aren’t a separate species particularly given to spite, power play and cliquishness any more than ‘school dads’ are, or indeed parents or childfree people in general —- they’re just people with kids at a school. I’ve not seen Motherland, but I assume, as it’s a comedy, it’s not intended as a documentary.

Some people buy into belief in these insane hierarchies and alliances, I can only assume because they have a need to.

I remember at DS’s old school being there for a conversation between several women with children in his class about some ‘alpha mum’ I didn’t know, who was being discussed as though she was a particularly powerful combination of Napoleon, Margaret Thatcher and Cruella de Vil, whose opinion of you meant you were either popular or pariah. Once I figured out who they meant, it turned out that she was this perfectly pleasant, rather ordinary woman in the PTA I’d chatted to once or twice in the playground.

Some good responses here I think.
Sorry you're hurt OP. I agree school mum cliques can be bloody hard.
I neglected my really good friends to spend time with a bunch of grown women that turned out to be absolute bitches. One in particular was nasty about other mums (and dads) I'd had enough of it and when their darling children bullied mine, it was the catalyst to avoid them like the plague 😆 I only wish I'd done it sooner; I hated the bitchiness but they might be talking about me now. Never mind- at least they're leaving somebody else alone... 😀
I was lucky my old friends were still there and I'm really grateful for them

Cliques can be awful. Op I hope you meet some more mums that are nicer. Find women dont like new people to the group. But I did meet some nice we still in touch ten years later. Never gel with mums the year my son started. Dd year were lovely

Life is too short to get miffed about it..you can ask in a gentle way why they decided to go camping and not mention it .. but to be honest I wouldn't fret about it unduly. You have to understand the difference between friends and acquaintances.

@LimeRedBanana I hang out in a group of 6 - we meet up together and we meet up separately. 5 of us do not arrange to do anything together, excluding one person - that’s the problem here.

Exactly

@LargeBouquet

My experience reflects *@Lime*RedBanana and *@MsTSwift’s — at schools both inside and outside the UK. And I agree entirely about the significance of the psychological test *@Lime** mentioned whereby the insecure children thought that no guests at a party meant no one liked them. I think it’s true you can often see on Mn threads about school ‘cliques’ and ‘exclusions’ a set of dynamics of insecurity, lack of social confidence and skills and over-investment in acceptance by a specific group.

The test is interesting but it misses the fact that there will be reasons why a child reacts by assuming negative things - their reaction reflects their state of mind at that time, not innate personality and character qualities - and the chances are they are reacting like that at that time because they have experienced bullying. Very few traits are innate, a negative or positive frame of mind has been shown to change depending on environment and circumstances

Sometimes there are groups of women who are invested in their group and they will be rude and disrespectful to others outside the group, just because they are outside the group. I was in a group like this when I was younger, I am embarrassed to say - the meanness is real, and people reacting to it is real. Not "drama" as lime said in her post above.

I've just this week realised I'm not interested in continuing with some friendships I've had since my teens.

I've not been excluded from any events/occasions but when we meet as a group I feel very excluded- one or two people dominate the conversation and no one else gets a look in, I'll ask questions and show interest but usually nothing gets reciprocated- certain people talk about themselves constantly. My best friend is part of the group too and she feels the same way as I do (that the rest of us don't get a look in). I've tolerated it for years but this week took the piss- since we had last met my partner had been diagnosed with bowel cancer (at 35, so a massive shock), had major surgery, plus we had got engaged and have set the date so I'm now wedding planning- they'd been told all of this in a WhatsApp group but I didn't go on about any of it- just informed them- there was plenty to talk about in person. No one asked me a single question- no one asked me how my partner is recovering from surgery, no one asked how we coped when we thought it had spread to his liver (after a CT scan found an abnormality). Not even anything trivial like "How's wedding planning". Fuck all. I felt shit for a day and then felt quite liberated when I realised that I won't be wasting my energy anymore :)

Sorry if that's an essay! I guess my point is it might be quite liberating if you don't use your energy up on them anymore

Please don't feel sad about this. I know how you feel because this happened to me a few years ago. They are not your people and it's better that you know that now and detach from them.
Image the insecurity that each of them feel that they too might be left out next time!
Find some kind people and be friends with them instead. Big hugs for you. Xx

Disco that is inexcusable. Most decent people wouldn’t treat a neighbour or casual acquaintance like that let alone a supposed old friend from school days 🙄🙁.

I was a very true friend and it made me lose my trust in people

This with bells on and I stated it earlier in the thread that it leaves an ''aftershock'' to the victims of such behaviour in that you lose the ability to trust people and move on and form strong trusting relationships and you lose confidence in yourself.

Which is why when these threads emerge on mn it baffles me how people are so quick to say ''go find new friends'' when they fail to see that often times the victim is unable to and is left pretty damaged. It's not that easy an event to get over as so many posters think. We are social creatures and the fact that we have being rejected socially like that can be a massive blow and leave permanent damage.

A break up of a platonic relationship can be as traumatic as a sexual relationship. Nobody would say to a woman who had been betrayed by their partner that they are wrong to be upset and they should find themselves another man.

Its horrid when this happens and you're right OP you feel like you're right back in the teenage years and the cool girls are leaving you out. I've had one of the school mums sort of latch onto me over the past year - I don't make friends easily so I was a bit cautious at first but she's nice enough and our kids are in class together. But then I started to notice last term that I was being asked quite a lot for different favours including drop offs and pick ups. One day I discovered I'd taken her child to school while she was "in bed so exhausted from being up all night poorly" but then another school mum had taken her out for coffee literally an hour after I took her child to school.

The final straw was last month when there was a birthday party for her child and we didn't get an invite but other kids from their class did. Despite how good a friend I am according to her. So when her other friends went on holiday and she asked me to meet up I declined and said I was busy. And I'm going back to just waving and saying hi to people at the school gates and not investing any more time in trying to build close friendships!

@Hdhdjejdj

A break up of a platonic relationship can be as traumatic as a sexual relationship. Nobody would say to a woman who had been betrayed by their partner that they are wrong to be upset and they should find themselves another man.

This is so true. I've only had two very difficult phases with close friends - since sorted and moved on from - but each caused me more pain and agonising and sleepless nights than any romantic relationship. In an odd way, both felt more personal and it didn't help that I was more in the wrong on each occasion.

@Yup83 any views on the helpful posts people have written?

A break up of a platonic relationship can be as traumatic as a sexual relationship. Nobody would say to a woman who had been betrayed by their partner that they are wrong to be upset and they should find themselves another man

exactly and nobody would say the stuff we hear on mn like he was more casual to him and you only imagined it to be a relationship. That puts the blame back on the victim.

I think they don’t sound like they’d be good friends to have anyway, what if they then tried to get you in on excluding someone else when it’s convenient? I wouldn’t want that insecurity in friendship of knowing they could do that to anyone at any time. They’ve shown you they’re like that, it’s not very desirable traits in a friend. It sucks for them to be like this, you sound lovely and as though you know how to be a good friend.
I know how this feels, we are not ‘in’ with the “cool” school group of Mums who socialise and holiday together, and it used to make me worried (for my kid mainly), and quite sad in the earlier years, but now they’re all getting older, they’re making their own friendships independently, it’s not up to the Mums anymore. My son has recently become friends with some kids whose Mums are very cliquey and “the cool Mums”. And guess what? I don’t have to be involved at all! The kids come to visit and collect my son to head to the park, it’s all very independent. I occasionally have to send a polite: can you please send him home if he turns up at your place text, or ask if they can have dinner with us, and that’s it! They’re always polite and thank us etc, it’s al very pleasant without implications of a closer connection if you know what I mean. I see they’re a clique, I don’t like cliques at all, and I have no desire to holiday with them! So it’s fine! There’s nothing to gossip about me either, I’m polite and friendly but not too involved or chatty.
So not being “in” may not impact the kids at all soon enough.
I’d just be polite, smile and friendly, but try to pull back internally and focus on other connections. If you can make one or two true ones, that’s really all you need. It doesn’t sound like it’s going to be these friends, but that’s on them.
I feel for you and hope you’re ok.

Is she a “victim” though? Not sure that mentality is helpful.

As an adult I keep friendships light I have low expectations. I don’t expect loyalty pledged and I don’t “expect” to be invited anywhere I am just pleased when I am invited!

Don’t give your heart to other women who frankly are probably not cruel and mean just busy thoughtless and abit selfish.

Personally I get my emotional needs met by Dh and my sisters. Friends are lovely to have but you don’t let them in and you don’t care enough to let them hurt you! Those are my internal rules for adult friendships anyway!

If the group are one of these tight little cliques with a "queen bee" then they are probably going to buzz along after her, rather than pointing out that someone is being excluded. I have never been a school mum as I have no children but if they are anything like the cliques in Motherland then Im not surprised at anything that happens in the hellscape of the school gate.

True. I never knew anything like it before becoming a mum.

Personally I get my emotional needs met by Dh and my sisters. Friends are lovely to have but you don’t let them in and you don’t care enough to let them hurt you! Those are my internal rules for adult friendships anyway! My siblings - my sister in particular has behaved like the OPs friends - none of my friends have ever behaved like that. Anyone who gets touched by a Queen Bee mentality gets hurt - sibling or friend - rules don't help, learning to walk away after it happens does.

The test is interesting but it misses the fact that there will be reasons why a child reacts by assuming negative things - their reaction reflects their state of mind at that time, not innate personality and character qualities - and the chances are they are reacting like that at that time because they have experienced bullying. Very few traits are innate, a negative or positive frame of mind has been shown to change depending on environment and circumstances

Absolutely, and I've never suggested otherwise, but there's also a difference between a young child dealing with friendship issues for the first time in his/her life, and an adult old enough to have school age children of his or her own and who might be expected to have more resilence and experience in managing friendships.

It's extremely clear from many of the threads about 'school run hell' or 'school gate cliques' on Mn that the poster is an anxious person, has poor social skills, struggles with friendships in general, is quick to perceive exclusions and slights, and to view entirely ordinary people as possessing far more power than they do.

Which is not to say that these posters are not also encountering averagely unpleasant people, the way they would in a workplace or any other place where you encounter people by chance, obviously.

You’re falsely interpreting posts and attributing a negative set of characteristics & traits to a narrative. Because it suits your prejudices and preferences to do so. You are exhibiting attribution bias

Quite frankly the op could have a balanced,heathy mental health with good resilience she’s simply unfortunately encountered some ghastly cliquey women. The dysfunctional group may in fact be the campers who excluded the op. Your presumption that the op is in someway inadequate or overly sensitised has no basis other than it’s your default
Conversely, one could speculate that all these women who claim to have super school friendships and are involved in the school are in-fact insightless and in fact they are they exclusionary clique causing all the problem

@EspressoDoubleShot

You’re falsely interpreting posts and attributing a negative set of characteristics & traits to a narrative. Because it suits your prejudices and preferences to do so. You are exhibiting attribution bias

Quite frankly the op could have a balanced,heathy mental health with good resilience she’s simply unfortunately encountered some ghastly cliquey women. The dysfunctional group may in fact be the campers who excluded the op. Your presumption that the op is in someway inadequate or overly sensitised has no basis other than it’s your default
Conversely, one could speculate that all these women who claim to have super school friendships and are involved in the school are in-fact insightless and in fact they are they exclusionary clique causing all the problem

We're all 'interpreting' based on the same textual material. I don't have any 'prejudices' around these issues -- in fact, DS's last school was not a particularly happy experience for me, and I spent a lot of time standing by myself in the playground getting sideeye from unfriendly mothers of children in DS's class, who fell silent if I approached and said hello.

But I could see perfectly well that, in an extremely insular village, where almost all the other mothers of DS's classmates were from the area and had gone to the same school, did not work, and were considerably younger than I was, an older, foreigner WOHM who only did the school run a few times a week was a strange prospect, although I'd got very involved in community volunteering, ran a playgroup, and had been living locally since just after DS was born. We just weren't one another's tribe. I went for coffee sometimes on days I wa working from home, but they didn't owe me inclusion.

I didn't take it personally, even when I discovered at the nativity play in Year 2 that there had been a WhatsApp group since the beginning of reception that no one had ever thought to tell me about. I simply asked who the admin was and to be added, rather than agonising about my exclusion, as it was useful for lost jumpers and homework. It was probably thoughtlessness rather than anything deliberate.

Exactly the same me has found extremely good friendships very quickly despite starting not long before the first lockdown at DS' new school, an inner-city hippy outfit with a really wide mix of kids and parents.

Unless the OP has explained further in updates I've missed, all she's said is that a group she goes for coffee with had mentioned going camping together before the summer, and now appear to have continued with the arrangements without her. It's not clear how close these people are, whether they saw one another over the summer etc.

Thanks everyone for the replies. (Also kind of ironic that in a post about bitchy mums there is bitching about whether mums are bitchy)

It has been really helpful to know that other people would have been upset about this or had similar experiences and that I’m not alone in this.

I thought these people were my tribe, and although we hadn’t known each other for long i thought it could be the start of some nice friendships. Now I feel a bit naive for thinking that these people were actually nice.

We all hang out separately and as a group which of course is totally normal and I’m ok with. I think what bothered me more is that we had all discussed it and then it went ahead without me.

I suspect that it isn’t anything in particular but I’m just more of a B list friend and I didn’t realise it.
I also find it really messed up that it was assumed that I would be left out for some “difference” single parent/neurodiverse child etc. I do have a partner, although he is not the father of my eldest who is at school with the kids of these mums. Does having a non biological parent in the family warrant being uninvited from group activities??!?! I didn’t realise we all had to have the exact same family set up in order to be included in society CAN WE ALL JUST AGREE TO BE KIND TO EACH OTHER regardless of our differences?!

I’m too proud probably to ask why I was invited and then it went ahead without me, don’t think I would get an honest answer and think it would make things more difficult. We both have other friends and my child is luckily not at all bothered, so I think I’ll be taking the bright snd breezy approach and focus on other friendships and my own thing.

You're sensible, Yup. There are so many levels of friendship. It's not worth worrying about.

Sounds good OP, I'd also try to keep the moral high ground

but secretly be stewing for aaages about how they have the gall to exclude me for no reason and also hoping they have a shit time and it pisses down with rain...