Letchy fucking men

[ineedsun]

I don’t think IABU but I’m due on so might be over reacting.

I wore shorts today because it’s warm here, not proper short, shorts, probably two or three inches above the knee, I walked somewhere - about 3 mile round trip. I’m just fed up of letchy men, I can ignore staring, and someone smiling and saying hello is friendly and nice but people slowing down to comment or make the sort of noise you make to call an animal. What the fuck is wrong with them. I felt genuinely intimidated at one point and I’m a nigh on 50year old grandmother, I changed my intended route on the way back because I felt too scared to walk along a footpath. I hate to think how teenage girls feel and what their experience is.

Perhaps naively I thought the world had moved on.

As for is it more common in London or a large city - maybe but only because here are more people, more traffic and it's more anonymous.

It's everywhere, but I have to be particularly vigilant in London. Men simply will not leave me alone.

I'm in my forties now and thought I was past this crap.

Honestly @Journeyofthedragons I’d feel unsafe in any of those locations so would avoid them anyway

Men have to walk places after dark just like women do. We can’t have Reclaim the Night matches and then demand men stay at home.

Why not? It's okay for women to be practically under house-arrest after dark because the streets are too unsafe for us. Why does it sound so shocking for the boot to be on the other foot?

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Men have to walk places after dark just like women do. We can’t have Reclaim the Night matches and then demand men stay at home.

Why not? It's okay for women to be practically under house-arrest after dark because the streets are too unsafe for us. Why does it sound so shocking for the boot to be on the other foot?

It doesn’t but to claim that the only reason men are out after dark is to intimidate women is ludicrous. Surely we should be aiming for everyone to be safe on the streets with no curfew for anyone?

@Blossomtoes

It would be better if he just didn't walk the street at night, men do this to be intimidating to women who are alone

That’s ridiculous. Men have to walk places after dark just like women do. We can’t have Reclaim the Night matches and then demand men stay at home.

My follow up post you might have missed

No, I appreciate that would be unworkable but men could avoid dark & unlit roads, side streets, alleyways, pathways by canals and shortcuts through woodland etc - anywhere where women feel unsafe late at night

@BillMasen

Honestly *@Journeyofthedragons* I’d feel unsafe in any of those locations so would avoid them anyway

Who makes you feel unsafe?

Sorry @Journeyofthedragons, I did miss it. Yes, completely agree.

@Journeyofthedragons I’m not a big bloke. Short skim and if I were to be attacked or mugged I couldn’t fight off attackers. That’s what I’d fear. Mugging, stabbing etc

I know it’s different for women. Not minimising that, just answering why I’d feel at risk

Skim=slim

No, I appreciate that would be unworkable but men could avoid dark & unlit roads, side streets, alleyways, pathways by canals and shortcuts through woodland etc - anywhere where women feel unsafe late at night

And what if those dark roads and alleyways are the only way home? Do men just not go out in the evening? Women are way more likely to be the recipients of unwanted harassment in the street but men are way more likely to be victims of actual violence. I am a reasonably big bloke, used to play semi pro rugby and I have been jumped twice and beaten up. I and many of my male friends make as much effort to avoid drunken groups as is possible. I also am aware that my presence around women walking alone at night can be seen as intimidating so I will cross the road or drop back to avoid scaring anyone. Believe it or not many men don't like walking those dark streets either. Men and women both face risks when out at night, different risks, but risks nonetheless.

@DillonPanthersTexas

No, I appreciate that would be unworkable but men could avoid dark & unlit roads, side streets, alleyways, pathways by canals and shortcuts through woodland etc - anywhere where women feel unsafe late at night

And what if those dark roads and alleyways are the only way home? Do men just not go out in the evening? Women are way more likely to be the recipients of unwanted harassment in the street but men are way more likely to be victims of actual violence. I am a reasonably big bloke, used to play semi pro rugby and I have been jumped twice and beaten up. I and many of my male friends make as much effort to avoid drunken groups as is possible. I also am aware that my presence around women walking alone at night can be seen as intimidating so I will cross the road or drop back to avoid scaring anyone. Believe it or not many men don't like walking those dark streets either. Men and women both face risks when out at night, different risks, but risks nonetheless.

I can't think of a single place I ever need to get to that necessarily involves going through a dark alley, or a canal towpath, or through woodland, or taking a short cut down an unlit street.

And if you've played rugby at a semi-pro level, I find it hard to believe that's you've 'avoided drunken groups as much as possible'. The long odds are you've been part of said groups on various occasions. And it's alright for you to do it, because you're one of the good guys, aren't you?

Talk about lack of self-awareness. You are beyond parody.

Why can men not just say" yes too many men behave like shits towards women and , when I see it I will call it out or at least lend my support to the woman. " , without feeling the need to justify themselves with NAMLT or indulging in a bit of whataboutery ?

Women are way more likely to be the recipients of unwanted harassment in the street but men are way more likely to be victims of actual violence.

Yes, but a) that violence will be from other men, b) it won't be because they are being preyed on for being men and c) nobody seems to want to mention it unless they're trying to minimise violence against women.

@IheartJKR

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

You might want to reread Dancing’s post.

And if you've played rugby at a semi-pro level, I find it hard to believe that's you've 'avoided drunken groups as much as possible'.

Kick out time at weekends is when most street violence occurs. That is when I and many other blokes are hyper alert to random acts of violence. Being a rugby player did not stop me getting punched in the head from behind and then repeatedly kicked on the ground. Being a reasonable big bloke did not stop a bunch of pissed dick heads attacking me at a bus stop on my way home from training. So yes, I am wary of groups of drunken rowdy men.

The long odds are you've been part of said groups on various occasions. And it's alright for you to do it, because you're one of the good guys, aren't you?

And you would be wrong. When I have drinks with mates I dont turn into a feral abusive animal. If you mean 'good guy' insofar as not attacking lone strangers in the street for fun, not throwing cans or bottles at people, not verbally intimidating men and women because they are easy targets, or count as friends people who do carry out such actions then yeah, I do consider myself one of the good guys. As for policing the crap behaviour of other men I pick my battles, challenging shit behaviour in the work place is easy, challenging the group of twats in the pub or street runs the serious risk of getting your head kicked in. Its not like these blokes can be reasoned with or will suddenly have a Damascine moment after a few words from me. Cowardly perhaps on my part but self preservation is a powerful instinct

Op you shouldn't have to describe the length of your shorts,it shouldn't matter If you were wearing hot pants and a coconut bra no man has the right to objectify a woman like that. It gives me the fucking rage, I've experienced far too much sexual harassment mainly due to having big breasts it's a lot rarer these days since I put on weight but still. It's so worrying the warped view men have I have a close male relative who has recently made some very misogynistic comments about women one instance where he referred to a woman as a tart due to her outfit. I was appalled and gave him a piece of my mind he had the good grace to look ashamed but it's made me see him in a different light .

@DillonPanthersTexas

And if you've played rugby at a semi-pro level, I find it hard to believe that's you've 'avoided drunken groups as much as possible'.

Kick out time at weekends is when most street violence occurs. That is when I and many other blokes are hyper alert to random acts of violence. Being a rugby player did not stop me getting punched in the head from behind and then repeatedly kicked on the ground. Being a reasonable big bloke did not stop a bunch of pissed dick heads attacking me at a bus stop on my way home from training. So yes, I am wary of groups of drunken rowdy men.

The long odds are you've been part of said groups on various occasions. And it's alright for you to do it, because you're one of the good guys, aren't you?

And you would be wrong. When I have drinks with mates I dont turn into a feral abusive animal. If you mean 'good guy' insofar as not attacking lone strangers in the street for fun, not throwing cans or bottles at people, not verbally intimidating men and women because they are easy targets, or count as friends people who do carry out such actions then yeah, I do consider myself one of the good guys. As for policing the crap behaviour of other men I pick my battles, challenging shit behaviour in the work place is easy, challenging the group of twats in the pub or street runs the serious risk of getting your head kicked in. Its not like these blokes can be reasoned with or will suddenly have a Damascine moment after a few words from me. Cowardly perhaps on my part but self preservation is a powerful instinct

That’s OK, as long as it’s just a woman who’s at risk of all those things, oh and also sexual abuse, assault and rape. It’s not as though you could literally make a difference by standing with her and asking if she’s OK.

Cowardly? You called it.

It’s not as though you could literally make a difference by standing with her and asking if she’s OK

You think a woman who’s being threatened by a group of men would be less frightened by another strange man standing with her? And they’ll all just go away?

As the mother of a man who has been punched in this kind of situation, I completely understand why men are reluctant to take on aggressive men.

Yes I do, I’ve been there and it would have made a difference. Just like post Brexit when I saw someone being abused because of her hijab, I sat with her. Didn’t say anything to them but spoke to her. Just like we were advised to as allies.

You don’t have to challenge people to help.

the point is I can see how bad it is but feel Powerless to help. It’s not in my sphere of influence and I took exception to one poster. I apologise for that

@BillMasen you're not powerless, & here is exactly what you can do to help - spend some time with the excellent Captain Awkward to find out how -
captainawkward.com/2012/08/07/322-323-my-friend-group-has-a-case-of-the-creepy-dude-how-do-we-clear-that-up/

Also - you stalwartly claim that none of your male friends are creeps. Perhaps you have selected very discerningly, in which case bully for you, but if you think your entire male-containing friendship group is innocent of harrassment, objectification, 'othering' & in other ways intimidating & diminishing women purely on the basis of their sex ... then you are not looking hard enough.

I'm waiting for my apology, @IheartJKR.

[quote BillMasen]@Journeyofthedragons I’m not a big bloke. Short skim and if I were to be attacked or mugged I couldn’t fight off attackers. That’s what I’d fear. Mugging, stabbing etc

I know it’s different for women. Not minimising that, just answering why I’d feel at risk[/quote]
You're right to be cautious. I would never advocate any man who wasn't extremely confident in his own physical ability to call out the behaviour of random men. As i've said on another thread, even the sleazy men mostly draw the line at violence against women, not so against other men, particularly if they perceive them as weaker. Imo the best thing you can do is get and keep the conversation going with other men. So not just in a reactive way, proactively tell women's stories to other men. Let them know the problem. That and use your vote to support candidates who prioritise women's issues. If we had stronger legislation to support us we would have less need of the protection of individual men.