Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

[quote Daisz]@TempleofZoom Alas with this comment my point is proven. So is the original OP's point. What is seen as "bothering" in the UK, is seen as normal and friendly in almost every other country on the planet. Nothing more needs to be said, your post just sums up the typical British attitude that is so cruel, nasty not only towards a child, but a very very young innocent child.....and that folks is exactly what the original poster ment, very very odd strange attitude towards young children, thank you for confirming that for everyone. "Bothering" yip lol that pretty much sums it up really! With that I don't think I will need to make another comment on this post again. Case proven on all counts!![/quote]
But @Daisz, have you not noticed the pandemic? People have good reason not to want to mingle with a small child wandering from group to group.

@Daisz

Last week I had a day out with my 3 year old and my parents who are in their 80"s. My lovely sociable daughter was busy interacting with lots of different families and their children in the country park we were in. It was a beautiful sunny day and most people were having a picnic and just basically enjoying the sunshine. Admittedly most people were lovely, but we were in quite a "middle class" setting and like it or not the UK being the UK class does infiltrate most aspects of life. All was fine until we decided to go for a walk. My little girl spotted a grandmother and her 3 granddaughters, so she decided to say hello to them. My poor daughter was completely blanked and ignored by the grandmother and also the children. My father was astounded and could not get over what he was seeing. Then he said well there is the problem right there. That woman is teaching those children to be completely rude and that it is ok to treat a little girl like that. I explained to my elderly father that it was not uncommon for that to happen, but generally speaking it is more working class people that tend to be that way, because they have a very strong tendency to have very rigid ideas on how children should be. Not only other peoples children but their own also. Sorry if what I said offends anyone, but that is generally how it is.

This has happened to me and my son. He was blanked by two little girls after saying hello in a communal play area, while their parents just ignored it and then stared at him until he moved away. It was very weird. He was bewildered and I was astonished at their rudeness - he hadn’t bothered their kids in any way. They appeared very affluent, middle class people.

I did not take this as an indictment on the entire British population. They were one strange family. From the top of my head, in the UK I have had:

• a crowd of lovely mums hold my baby DD for me when my toddler DS had a meltdown at the noise of a vacuum cleaner in the soft play, and wouldn’t come out

• I’ve had a staff member at M&S fetch me water and topped up my coffee when she saw I was breastfeeding.

• I’ve had older people give me a silver coin ‘for the bairn’ (north east tradition). This was in a very working class area. I’m not sure what your point about being middle class is - do you think working class people don’t like kids or something?

• we visit places with beautiful play areas and sensory spaces. Restaurants with wonderful kids’ menus. We have wonderful parks for our DC to play and explore. Free reading/story sessions at local libraries.

Individual examples of rude people do mot ‘prove’ anything.

We are very accommodating with loud drunks (stag dos, hen dis, birthdays), hooligans, dogs and all but god forbid your toddler has a tantrum in a restaurant or a supermarket you get eyes rolled at. I've travelled a lot and can easily see the difference. My DS becomes a king in any setting outside of the UK but in the UK, he is seen as an inconvenience and btw, I'm not a type of parent that will let my toddler run wild or disturb anyone. I would entertain him to keep him busy or take him out of the setting until his food arrives if his kicking a fuss.

Agree and I’m the same about my children. I don’t allow them to run around or bother people either. I said this up thread. It boggles my mind that adults are about alllowed to act like children but children can’t act like children. Children are still learning while many adults shouldn’t still be at their age or don’t care that they are being a nuisance. It’s not ok for children to bother adults but it’s ok for another adult to bother me when the signs of not being bothered are obvious. How many threads do we have about adults bothering other adults and people saying “they’re just trying to be friendly, they’re probably lonely, doesn’t hurt to be nice, what is society coming to, xyz” but those same allowances aren’t given to children who are still learning those social cues.

but generally speaking it is more working class people that tend to be that way, because they have a very strong tendency to have very rigid ideas on how children should be. Not only other peoples children but their own also.

This is such a bizarre generalization!

[quote Daisz]@TempleofZoom Alas with this comment my point is proven. So is the original OP's point. What is seen as "bothering" in the UK, is seen as normal and friendly in almost every other country on the planet. Nothing more needs to be said, your post just sums up the typical British attitude that is so cruel, nasty not only towards a child, but a very very young innocent child.....and that folks is exactly what the original poster ment, very very odd strange attitude towards young children, thank you for confirming that for everyone. "Bothering" yip lol that pretty much sums it up really! With that I don't think I will need to make another comment on this post again. Case proven on all counts!![/quote]
Oh dear!
You sound like healthy boundaries were never taught to you nor that British culture is not one homogenous lump.
Im British but originally from another country/ culture.

If you read what I wrote I didnt say children shouldnt interact with others at all nor did I say anything cruel or nasty.
You dont sound like you understand child development or boundaries.
We interact differently with people depending on how well we know them and its really important to teach young children this.

At 3 children are learning about them and interacting with everyone you meet in an over friendly way is not what I would teach my DC.

I would have intervened and said lets let these people eat their lunch and we will have ours.
No drama not nasty or cruel.

Saying hello, playing if the other child is happy fine, repeatedly going up to other families is not fine.

It makes them vulnerable, now and later in life.
I work with young people and those who have no personal boundaries including with strangers are usually poorly parented or have been abused.

Individual examples of rude people do mot ‘prove’ anything.

@Optionnumber2

Couldn’t agree more. But time and again on this thread there have been comments about how once someone saw a baby crying in a restaurant and really children shouldn’t be allowed out. Individual examples of annoying children are regularly extrapolated across the population.

One thing I noticed is that almost all the complaints about children on this thread are around restaurants. I think other cultures see eating as a communal experience that should include everyone. The British think that unless it’s a ‘family friendly’ chain, restaurants in an evening should be for adults.

Years ago before we had our own children, DH and I had dinner at Gordon Ramsay at Royal Hospital Road. DH was horrified when a family with two children sat down next to each other. He didn’t understand why they hadn’t got a babysitter. I’m not culturally British, and I couldn’t understand why he was so negative. They were beautifully behaved and clearly appreciated the good food. The only reason I could think of as to why they wouldn’t be taken there was because it was a ridiculously extravagant meal and not many families could afford that.

They certainly didn’t disturb my evening, which I’d worked hard all week to pay for

@nonono1

but generally speaking it is more working class people that tend to be that way, because they have a very strong tendency to have very rigid ideas on how children should be. Not only other peoples children but their own also.

This is such a bizarre generalization!

Especially when the follow-up post from @Daisz clarified that these ‘rigid ideas’ are in fact a tendency to shout and swear at their children.

DH was horrified when a family with two children sat down next to each other

Next to us. Doh

My poor daughter was completely blanked and ignored by the grandmother and also the children. My father was astounded and could not get over what he was seeing. Then he said well there is the problem right there. That woman is teaching those children to be completely rude and that it is ok to treat a little girl like that

No, they're teaching a little girl that it's ok not to engage with people they don't want to. This is the problem. It's a different thread really but it's the extrovert versus introvert thing again. If I want to read my book on a train but you want to speak to me, I'm the rude one. But I want to read my book, I don't owe you engagement! Why are introverts the rude ones? Same on a plane - someone decides to chat to you when you want to sleep. Leave me alone - your need to chat is not more important than my need to sleep.

And equally, it's up to people if they say hello to people they see in the street or in this case a country park. It's not rude. Some people like to be sociable - that's fine and there are plenty of other sociable people they can interact with. Others want to be left alone to do their own thing.

On the one hand we tell girls they need to have boundaries and be able to tell people to bugger off if they don't want their attention. On the other hand we're saying that if they say hello to someone it's rude for someone not to say hello back. Well - there's a bit of a disconnect there.

@lockdownmadnessdotcom

My poor daughter was completely blanked and ignored by the grandmother and also the children. My father was astounded and could not get over what he was seeing. Then he said well there is the problem right there. That woman is teaching those children to be completely rude and that it is ok to treat a little girl like that

No, they're teaching a little girl that it's ok not to engage with people they don't want to. This is the problem. It's a different thread really but it's the extrovert versus introvert thing again. If I want to read my book on a train but you want to speak to me, I'm the rude one. But I want to read my book, I don't owe you engagement! Why are introverts the rude ones? Same on a plane - someone decides to chat to you when you want to sleep. Leave me alone - your need to chat is not more important than my need to sleep.

And equally, it's up to people if they say hello to people they see in the street or in this case a country park. It's not rude. Some people like to be sociable - that's fine and there are plenty of other sociable people they can interact with. Others want to be left alone to do their own thing.

On the one hand we tell girls they need to have boundaries and be able to tell people to bugger off if they don't want their attention. On the other hand we're saying that if they say hello to someone it's rude for someone not to say hello back. Well - there's a bit of a disconnect there.

Thank god ! Someone who actually understands social interaction.👏👏👏

Well it seems I totally underestimated how many people are actually offended by little children. Wow just Wow!!!!

One thing I noticed is that almost all the complaints about children on this thread are around restaurants. I think other cultures see eating as a communal experience that should include everyone. The British think that unless it’s a ‘family friendly’ chain, restaurants in an evening should be for adults.

I agree with this, and am happy to see small children in restaurants. However, I draw the line when parents purposefully ignore their screaming children and let them run riot and constantly yell. If your child can sit and behave then fine; if not then please take them out and don’t ruin everybody else’s meal.

@Daisz

Well it seems I totally underestimated how many people are actually offended by little children. Wow just Wow!!!!

Have you addressed any of the points made by other people, where they have given examples of brilliant facilities and support for children in Britain?

I’d also be really interested to hear more about your views on working class versus middle class attitudes towards children.

This reads to me that your 3 year old was going round bothering other families though

Yes, this. I'm not a fan of young children and generally go out of my way to avoid them. I find everything about young children annoying. It was particularly annoying last weekend when I took my 15 year old adopted daughter out for lunch at her favourite restaurant and the two young children on the table next to us kept coming over and trying to get her to play with them, made comments about her hair (she's biracial and has an amazing Afro), tried to sit at our table with us. Their useless parents either ignored them or said that they liked older children and just wanted to chat to her....we ended up moving tables because not only does my daughter not like the company of young children, but she wanted lunch with me to tell me that she had been sexually assaulted at a local festival and didn't know what to do about it.

Sometimes adults (and nearly adults) need to have privacy and sensitive conversations. Sometimes those conversations cannot be held at home.

Keep your child away from other people unless they specifically ask to meet them.

@Daisz

Well it seems I totally underestimated how many people are actually offended by little children. Wow just Wow!!!!

Not remotely offended. You seem to be unable to understand that people have different thoughts, wants or needs to you. Other people will not feel about your child like you do. On a day out I wouldnt want someone elses child constantly coming over, particularly during Covid. I wouldnt harm them and if they were in danger I would leap up! So no not offended but not wanting to engage with them either.

All,those annoying adults that get mentioned on here? Well that's a consequence of not teaching children how to behave. And yes, it's fucking annoying too.

@Daisz

Well it seems I totally underestimated how many people are actually offended by little children. Wow just Wow!!!!

I’m not offended by little children. I like them and I’m usually happy to interact with them but I don’t always want to. I was trying to have a conversation with my mum on a train the other day about my dad’s health and we were constantly interrupted by a 3 year old standing up and looking over the seat, we both smiled and said hello but after a bit I did really want his Mum to make him sit down or divert him elsewhere.

I don’t think it’s very good parenting to allow your 3 year old to just wander up to lots of random people and expect interaction.

Most parents think their own children are marvellous. They are not. Most parents think that children should be allowed in pubs at all hours, running around while they get drunk. They should not. Grown ups often want to go to places where they can be grown ups; not have to moderate their lives to accommodate kids, etc. What is wrong with that?
To many, this country is completely centred around the little darlings, and adults are made to feel in the wrong if they disagree

@SecretSpAD

All,those annoying adults that get mentioned on here? Well that's a consequence of not teaching children how to behave. And yes, it's fucking annoying too.

I think you win the thread! So true

Why was Daisz comment deleted ?

Because she basically said that that poster shouldn't have been allowed to adopt due to the fact that she didn't want to talk to random children and wanted to concentrate on her own DD.

@BananaOatmeal

Because she basically said that that poster shouldn't have been allowed to adopt due to the fact that she didn't want to talk to random children and wanted to concentrate on her own DD.

Charming

@TempleofZoom because I questioned why someone who openly admits to not liking children was allowed to adopt!