Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

Today I was at a good festival and most kids were happy staying with whoever they were with or dancing to the music. Most people though were adults with hot food or beers,it was very noticeable when three children arrives running around screaming loud enough to drown out the music. I'm amazed that they didn't run into someone but they definitely ruined the set.

30 seconds of research tells me that the UK has higher rates of breastfeeding than Ireland, France and Spain (based on unicef data), so based on that original 'non factual claim' by the OP I can assume the rest of their post is a rant without fact.

Last week I had a day out with my 3 year old and my parents who are in their 80"s. My lovely sociable daughter was busy interacting with lots of different families and their children in the country park we were in. It was a beautiful sunny day and most people were having a picnic and just basically enjoying the sunshine. Admittedly most people were lovely, but we were in quite a "middle class" setting and like it or not the UK being the UK class does infiltrate most aspects of life.
All was fine until we decided to go for a walk. My little girl spotted a grandmother and her 3 granddaughters, so she decided to say hello to them. My poor daughter was completely blanked and ignored by the grandmother and also the children. My father was astounded and could not get over what he was seeing. Then he said well there is the problem right there. That woman is teaching those children to be completely rude and that it is ok to treat a little girl like that. I explained to my elderly father that it was not uncommon for that to happen, but generally speaking it is more working class people that tend to be that way, because they have a very strong tendency to have very rigid ideas on how children should be. Not only other peoples children but their own also.
Sorry if what I said offends anyone, but that is generally how it is.

The UK does however have a very very low breastfeeding rate which concerns many people. I certainly thought it was the lowest in Europe and even if it is not that does not mean the gist of saying it is low is some kind of major lie.
[[https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/breastfeeding-rates-britain-lowest-world-channel-4-dispatches-kate-quilton-a8468416.html] "Earlier this year, a report revealed that the UK has one of the lowest rates of breastfeeding in the world, with just 34 per cent of babies receiving breast milk at six months of age, compared to 62 per cent in Sweden." [I didn't note the date of "this year".]

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/breastfeeding-rates-britain-lowest-world-channel-4-dispatches-kate-quilton-a8468416.html

But Xenia where are they getting the data from? I BF to 3.5 years but that isn't recorded anywhere, other than that I was 'partially BFing' at six weeks and EBFing at 3 days. The same goes for all the people I know who've BF for years - who records the stats that they're doing it?!

@hidingnowsons

I'm from somewhere in the Med and children are actively allowed to stay up until they drop (usually around 10pm!) and it's seem as completely normal

What I don't get with that is how families manage to get the kids up early for school the next day!

@Daisz

Last week I had a day out with my 3 year old and my parents who are in their 80"s. My lovely sociable daughter was busy interacting with lots of different families and their children in the country park we were in. It was a beautiful sunny day and most people were having a picnic and just basically enjoying the sunshine. Admittedly most people were lovely, but we were in quite a "middle class" setting and like it or not the UK being the UK class does infiltrate most aspects of life. All was fine until we decided to go for a walk. My little girl spotted a grandmother and her 3 granddaughters, so she decided to say hello to them. My poor daughter was completely blanked and ignored by the grandmother and also the children. My father was astounded and could not get over what he was seeing. Then he said well there is the problem right there. That woman is teaching those children to be completely rude and that it is ok to treat a little girl like that. I explained to my elderly father that it was not uncommon for that to happen, but generally speaking it is more working class people that tend to be that way, because they have a very strong tendency to have very rigid ideas on how children should be. Not only other peoples children but their own also. Sorry if what I said offends anyone, but that is generally how it is.

And what, pray, are these ‘rigid ideas’ about child behaviour to which the working classes are prone and the middle classes magically immune?

@PallasStrand well when out in public you usually hear working class people shouting and swearing at their children to stop doing whatever trivial thing that is annoying them. Last week in a supermarket I witnessed someone give their baby a row for throwing their toy. "Stop that is naughty you pain in the arse" baby must have been 10 months at the most. Generally that sort of thing, of course that is going to exculate over into other peoples children.

@RidingMyBike

But Xenia where are they getting the data from? I BF to 3.5 years but that isn't recorded anywhere, other than that I was 'partially BFing' at six weeks and EBFing at 3 days. The same goes for all the people I know who've BF for years - who records the stats that they're doing it?!

Most of these sorts of stats would be from surveys extrapolated across the population. You don’t have to ask every single person in a country whether they fed and if so, how long for, to get an accurate idea of breastfeeding rates.

And you must agree that breastfeeding a child to 3.5 years is extremely rare in the UK. Do you really think that there’s a lot of unrecorded extended breastfeeding here?

I agree OP, European countries or some of them are much more accommodating for children. Spain for example your child could be out late running around a restaurant and it's no big deal whereas here all hell breaks loose.

However, I think kids SHOULD behave when out and if they can't parents should not bring them.

I don't have kids, and work a bloody long hard week. When I have paid good money for an evening meal I don't expect to be disturbed by a kid. Why can't kids go out in the afternoon?

And also crying on a plane is annoying AF. Why would I pretend to enjoy that?

So while I agree with you, I also don't really like other peoples kids that much making noise lol so guess that proves your point!

The breastfeeding thing I have no experience of but if I were to breastfeed would probably put a scarf over my boob because I don't like exposing myself in public - don't care if others do though but feed or not I just see a boob in public unnecessary but that's just my personal opinion.

@BrozTito

If you hate the place so much, off you pop.

[quote Daisz]@PallasStrand well when out in public you usually hear working class people shouting and swearing at their children to stop doing whatever trivial thing that is annoying them. Last week in a supermarket I witnessed someone give their baby a row for throwing their toy. "Stop that is naughty you pain in the arse" baby must have been 10 months at the most. Generally that sort of thing, of course that is going to exculate over into other peoples children.[/quote]
I can honestly say that I don’t usually hear anything of the kind when I’m out and about.

Op I agree with everything you are saying. I am English but this is a conversation I've had with my mum before now. People who are struggling to see it or understand it must not have anything to compare to. I think the same goes for the elderly in England, too

Ive lived many years both in and out of the UK and it seems that the UK isn’t necessarily child unfriendly, it just sections them off away from the rest of society. The UK has so much for kids in terms of play farms, soft plays, theatre just for kids, kid friendly restaurants, days out etc, but then you are expected not to take you dc with you to the other places. It makes it really hard to meet up with nonparent friends and you see all the time threads on mumsnet about how people fall out with friends when one has a kid.

Ive lived in Spain where there’s less specifically for kids, but kids are welcome and expected everywhere adults are. They don’t seem to annoy the Spanish in the same way they annoy the British. I think if anything, British children are better behaved, but sadly less tolerated.

On balance, I prefer raising kids outside the UK but holidaying there to visit all the brilliant places you can take them!

Re breastfeeding it is definitely one of the lowest in the world and quite concerning. In France it is also poor but mat leave is also much shorter (and longer leave isn't socially acceptable sadly) so it doesn't help breastfeeding. I'd reckon though that its not linked to how children are viewed but more to do with women/the place of women in society.

Re children - i have not experienced those issues. People interact with my kids and always have. I do agree that we are in an individualistic society where we wouldn't help each other readily ie people complain when seeing kids misbehave rather than step in and help. In India people will more readily step in to help a struggling parent. Again not to do with attitude to children but generally individualistic societies.
Childcare not easily accessible - maybe true. again more to do with the place of women in society and the idea that many stay home or go part time to look after the children.

Holiday clubs - near me there are many options around 15quids a day, that seems ok to me.

'I don't have kids, and work a bloody long hard week. When I have paid good money for an evening meal I don't expect to be disturbed by a kid. Why can't kids go out in the afternoon?"

Because the parents also work bloody hard all week and want to go out with their kids once in a while?
Ive been disturbed by groups of drunken in idiots more times than I've been disturbed by children in restaurants. The most well behaved kid could have a tricky day, those things cannot be planned. We all have to be tolerant of each other.

@PersephoneJames

Ive lived many years both in and out of the UK and it seems that the UK isn’t necessarily child unfriendly, it just sections them off away from the rest of society. The UK has so much for kids in terms of play farms, soft plays, theatre just for kids, kid friendly restaurants, days out etc, but then you are expected not to take you dc with you to the other places. It makes it really hard to meet up with nonparent friends and you see all the time threads on mumsnet about how people fall out with friends when one has a kid.

Ive lived in Spain where there’s less specifically for kids, but kids are welcome and expected everywhere adults are. They don’t seem to annoy the Spanish in the same way they annoy the British. I think if anything, British children are better behaved, but sadly less tolerated.

On balance, I prefer raising kids outside the UK but holidaying there to visit all the brilliant places you can take them!

@PersephoneJames

I think this sums it up beautifully. Upthread people were asking about why Hong Kong was so child friendly. I only lived there briefly pre-kids and have visited twice since having them so my view may not be accurate, but I think it’s the mix between the Chinese attitude of children are welcome anywhere and the British cultural heritage, where there are lots of places/activities that are predominantly for children.

@Daisz

Last week I had a day out with my 3 year old and my parents who are in their 80"s. My lovely sociable daughter was busy interacting with lots of different families and their children in the country park we were in. It was a beautiful sunny day and most people were having a picnic and just basically enjoying the sunshine. Admittedly most people were lovely, but we were in quite a "middle class" setting and like it or not the UK being the UK class does infiltrate most aspects of life. All was fine until we decided to go for a walk. My little girl spotted a grandmother and her 3 granddaughters, so she decided to say hello to them. My poor daughter was completely blanked and ignored by the grandmother and also the children. My father was astounded and could not get over what he was seeing. Then he said well there is the problem right there. That woman is teaching those children to be completely rude and that it is ok to treat a little girl like that. I explained to my elderly father that it was not uncommon for that to happen, but generally speaking it is more working class people that tend to be that way, because they have a very strong tendency to have very rigid ideas on how children should be. Not only other peoples children but their own also. Sorry if what I said offends anyone, but that is generally how it is.

This reads to me that your 3 year old was going round bothering other families though.

The GM probably saw it and didnt engage.
Why would you teach a 3 year old to go up to other people they dont know on a day out?
Families having picnics?
They just want to be left in peace to enjoy it not have other peoples children coming over all the time!
Particularily given Covid.
If they are in a play park then fine the dc interact but just going up to people?
Its not a great thing to teach children.
Imagine doing this as an adult-in a pub, you go to talk to all the other people?
They would think you were either drunk or strange.
Lacks boundaries.
Your comments about working class people are disgraceful.

I haven't read the whole thread but agree with your post. We are very accommodating with loud drunks (stag dos, hen dis, birthdays), hooligans, dogs and all but god forbid your toddler has a tantrum in a restaurant or a supermarket you get eyes rolled at. I've travelled a lot and can easily see the difference. My DS becomes a king in any setting outside of the UK but in the UK, he is seen as an inconvenience and btw, I'm not a type of parent that will let my toddler run wild or disturb anyone. I would entertain him to keep him busy or take him out of the setting until his food arrives if his kicking a fuss.

@oblada as selfish as it sounds though i didn't decide to have the kids so the parents and their needs to come out and disturb my evening is not really my issue

Oh also forgot to add, during plane journeys arriving to your holiday destination or back, it's only English people that will huff and puff whereas the remaining people from the country you are going to or arriving from, they will offer sweets, engage with your little one and say it's ok their ears get blocked.

This reads to me that your 3 year old was going round bothering other families though.

That’s how I read it too. Not saying I would ignore a random child who came up to me but I would inwardly find it annoying if all I wanted was to enjoy my coffee and cake/read my book/my phone in peace. Some parents seem to think I should feel privileged if their child talks to me too.

This might be dependent on where you live though. I asked a friend in London and she said no one talked to her and her baby which rather blew my mind. I live in a friendly northern town. People also talk to my toddler every single time we go out.

@WiggIyWoo maybe your friend just isn’t very friendly? I live in London and can’t go anywhere without people really keen to interact with my toddler, chatting with her and smiling. In fact the one and only time I’ve been glared at when my toddler made a noise was by a couple in a restaurant in a supposedly “friendly” small town.

@TempleofZoom Alas with this comment my point is proven. So is the original OP's point. What is seen as "bothering" in the UK, is seen as normal and friendly in almost every other country on the planet. Nothing more needs to be said, your post just sums up the typical British attitude that is so cruel, nasty not only towards a child, but a very very young innocent child.....and that folks is exactly what the original poster ment, very very odd strange attitude towards young children, thank you for confirming that for everyone. "Bothering" yip lol that pretty much sums it up really! With that I don't think I will need to make another comment on this post again. Case proven on all counts!!