Why is UK so child unfriendly?

[bezabez]

Hi! I am foreign person living in the UK for the past 15 years.

I have noticed that the attitudes towards children are really strange in this country. Generally kids aren't accepted to be kids. They are expected to be quiet (ish) if out and about eg in a restaurant or a cafe, women don't breastfeed often in public (UK has the lowest rate of breastfeeding in the world) and they are expected 'to do as you're told' - that's a weird expression in itself tbh and to behave and never show a wild side. If on a train or other public spaces people tend not to engage with them even with babies (where I'm from there would be talking and smiling and general admirations) or tthey make faces, huffing and puffing etc if the children 'misbehave'.

Also parents complain A LOT about having children, sometimes as a form of a banter as these are socially acceptable jokes. Especially during the holidays.

On top of that there aren't many affordable childcare options or things like holiday camps and clubs (I know they exist in bigger cities sometimes but it isn't the same).

Overall it's no place for young people!

Does it come from the Victorian 'kids are to be seen not heard' thing?

Again where I'm from kids are celebrated as the future here they are mostly treated as inconvenience.

[quote Daisz]@TempleofZoom because I questioned why someone who openly admits to not liking children was allowed to adopt![/quote]
If that’s your take I worry for you.

Lots of people don’t like children other than their own. Nobody suggests they shouldn’t have had children.

@BananaOatmeal not true the poster admitted in their post they did not like children. Read back if you don't believe me.

@Daisz I missed that little gem. So, just for you, a quick explanation. My husband had a sister. That sister had two children. Then that sister died when they were young teens. Said children came to live with us and asked if we would adopt them. We said yes. End of story.

Still can't stand young children.

I did read it back and what you said was still vile. Plenty of people don't much care for other people's children. That doesn't mean that they won't be an excellent parent to their own. Others don't particularly enjoy their children when they are babies and toddlers but enjoy them more when they're older. It doesn't mean that they don't love them. Also people do adopt older children too.

Nothing wrong with kids behaving in restaurants and out in public.

The thing is, it’s never a binary is it? Both things can be true. Sometimes I might want a meal with DH where it’s a bit quieter so we can unwind. Sometimes I love chatting with other families and it’s fabulous to fall in conversation with people who you get on well with, while the DC play together. Sometimes I have time to wave and smile at other DC on a train - sometimes I need to get work done so my headphones go on and I to just sit and do work.

My opinion is, I think the UK is child friendly. From my own experience, other than one or two rare occasions, I have felt welcome in restaurants/museums/parks etc.

I have two young children (3 and 5)... they are always chatting away to random people on the bus or train!

When we go out to eat they are more than capable of sitting quietly and chatting (and the older one is going through an asd assessment). But that's because we have eaten out with them from both being tiny! (Obviously not 5 star restaurants but we go to nice country pubs! Obv we go to a harvester/brewers too as they tend to have play areas which are handy).

I think you have generalised a bit op!

I breastfed both of mine and so did most of the friends so it was normalised to me but I think there's definitely not the support there should be!

Grown ups often want to go to places where they can be grown ups; not have to moderate their lives to accommodate kids, etc. What is wrong with that?

@sbfptw

There’s actually quite a lot wrong with that if you want to banish children so that as an adult you can get obnoxiously drunk and rowdy. Any sober adults around would probably find you a nuisance too.

If you just want a quiet drink and a bit of adult conversation, then why would children nearby be a problem? If you’re conversation isn’t suitable for children, maybe turn the volume down? Because if children at the next table can hear you in a pub, you’re probably too loud and unpleasant for all customers, adults and children, to be around.

@Mammyloveswine are we going to pretend that working class people are not the ones that generally don't breastfeed atol? Or just like the shouting loudly at their children in public, shall we just pretend that little fact does not exist either.

Well done, yes support is low and sometimes actively discouraged by some midwives, so individual perseverance is paramount for success.

[quote Daisz]@Mammyloveswine are we going to pretend that working class people are not the ones that generally don't breastfeed atol? Or just like the shouting loudly at their children in public, shall we just pretend that little fact does not exist either.

Well done, yes support is low and sometimes actively discouraged by some midwives, so individual perseverance is paramount for success.[/quote]
What happened to you to spark off this bizarre characterisation of WC parenting?

@Daisz what is your issue with working class people? You come across as very snobby!

[quote nonono1]@Daisz what is your issue with working class people? You come across as very snobby![/quote]
Agree. What does class have to do with this conversation?

[quote Daisz]@Mammyloveswine are we going to pretend that working class people are not the ones that generally don't breastfeed atol? Or just like the shouting loudly at their children in public, shall we just pretend that little fact does not exist either.

Well done, yes support is low and sometimes actively discouraged by some midwives, so individual perseverance is paramount for success.[/quote]
The reasons behind class and breastfeeding are extremely complex. It’s also not a ‘fact’ that ‘working class’ parents shout at their children in the street - what evidence do you have for that?

@nonono1 just to be clear I have no issues with working class people, but it is a fact they are less likely to breastfeed and do need help education and support which is sadly lacking. Without that acknowledgement breastfeeding rates shall remain low. We could just pretend that is not the case, but it is not though is it? The same could be said for lack patience with very young children. I believe ALL would benefit from a parenting class, to deal with each stage of a child's development, education is key, admittedly even I would have benefited from such a thing, but these things are just not prioritised which sadly reflects on society.

@Daisz I agree but parents many of them think they are born parents and can learn nothing.

Had a conversation with my friends and I said when becoming a parent I would read books to get techniques and they looked at me with disgust.

I found it weird that somehow they think they can naturally be amazing at something they've never done before, I think education is lacking I agree.

I think if I’m in a restaurant it’s not necessarily the kids I get annoyed with. I think it’s great for kids to learn how to behave amongst adults. However I probably get more annoyed when you have loud parents talking to their DC’s in a very patronising kiddish way explaining everything in a very loud voice. Subtlety and discretion are always good lessons for kids to learn too.

I don’t think that the UK is an unfriendly place for children. Mine are teens now but I’ve always had good experiences on public transport museums restaurants etc. Only bad experience I’ve had was in a museum in France when my 3 year old was doing the children’s museum trail, excitedly called Mummy I’ve found it and got properly told off by a member of staff for being noisy

Restaurants can be tricky because I think in the UK we tend to put our children to bed earlier than in parts of Europe (possibly climate related) so you don’t generally expect to see small children in certain restaurants in the evening. I can remember a friend telling me about a mini meltdown down she’d had on her first night out with her DH after her third baby when she realised that were seated next to a family with a whiny baby and a spirited toddler at 8pm in a small restaurant

Also, I have absolutely no issue with kids being in restaurants at all - it's not my business!

Just as long as the child behaves, I totally get that kids are unpredictable but the point your child throws a tantrum or becomes disruptive should be the point you leave the restaurant just like at school they leave the class if they het unruly so to me it's just basic discipline.

[quote Daisz]@nonono1 just to be clear I have no issues with working class people, but it is a fact they are less likely to breastfeed and do need help education and support which is sadly lacking. Without that acknowledgement breastfeeding rates shall remain low. We could just pretend that is not the case, but it is not though is it? The same could be said for lack patience with very young children. I believe ALL would benefit from a parenting class, to deal with each stage of a child's development, education is key, admittedly even I would have benefited from such a thing, but these things are just not prioritised which sadly reflects on society.[/quote]
So, do middle-class mothers come into the world knowing how to BF or access support if not? I notice you’re generously conceding that the middle classes might now also benefit from parenting classes, even though, according to you, the working classes are the only ones who are usually be found shout to at their babies in public…

*There’s actually quite a lot wrong with that if you want to banish children so that as an adult you can get obnoxiously drunk and rowdy. Any sober adults around would probably find you a nuisance too.

If you just want a quiet drink and a bit of adult conversation, then why would children nearby be a problem? If you’re conversation isn’t suitable for children, maybe turn the volume down? Because if children at the next table can hear you in a pub, you’re probably too loud and unpleasant for all customers, adults and children, to be around.*

Well said!!

I think something that has been missed by the posters who think that DC need to be at the centre of it all, everywhere, all the time, with people cooing and interacting with them, is that this comes across as incredibly entitled. Some people cannot have children, some people don't want children, adults need adult space at times, and sometimes that need to be out of their home, and for all these reasons it is sometimes appropriate that adult aren't bombarded with other people's children's behaviour or expected to parent.

@ADreadedSunnyDay

I think something that has been missed by the posters who think that DC need to be at the centre of it all, everywhere, all the time, with people cooing and interacting with them, is that this comes across as incredibly entitled. Some people cannot have children, some people don't want children, adults need adult space at times, and sometimes that need to be out of their home, and for all these reasons it is sometimes appropriate that adult aren't bombarded with other people's children's behaviour or expected to parent.

Well said.

I came on here to comment but the thread has turned into a working class/ middle class/ breast feeding/ judgemental nightmare.

I am working class but live in a super wealthy area of london as i did well for myself but i havent been heard screaming and swearing at my DC in the street and I breast fed them all too. I also spend alot of time in spain due to having spanish family and we all manage to enjoy going out as it is indeed DC friendly, although not surprisngly as its so bloody hot, folks that live their dont go out with their DC until its cooler in the early evening. DC still dont go off and interrupt folks when their eating or wander over to random strangers as that isnt acceptable in any country. Where i am in London the local pub has a family friendly section and that works for everyone. We all just need to accept we have different views and that is normal. My issue where I live is the arrogant middle class dog owners who think rules dont apply to them.....but that is a whole different thread!

sorry I didnt mean to righ super wealthy