Possibly a sensitive topic but AIBU to say no to this?

[JudgeJerry]

Have lurked here for a little while but my first post.

My husband and I are separating. There is a whole host of reasons for this but one of the big ones is I just felt like I got no help from him with anything, he was always working and everything else was left to me (I also work). Resentment was starting to build massively and he has never done anything to change things despite us going over this so many times, suggesting counselling etc...

We have one DC together and my husband has two older DC from a previous relationship who live with him full time and see their mother on a very ad-hoc basis, contact with their DM has been this way for about 4 years now (issues I won't go into here).

We are trying to arrange contact arrangements with our DC, and we have been arguing basically about my DSC. He thinks it would be right for them to continue having some form of schedule to see myself and their half sibling. I do not agree. They will obviously still see their half sibling, our DC, when they go to their Dad's but I don't see why this needs to involve me.

Whilst I do care for my step children, this is one of the things that caused so many issues in our relationship, that I felt he pushed everything onto me in regards to the children, I basically took over everything and he didn't change a thing. Which is something that seems to be common place from my reading on here.

I highly suspect he is saying this is 'right and fair' so that he continues getting help from me with childcare.

Quite honestly I'm just ready for a clean break or as clean a break as we can possibly manage with DC in the mix and, whilst I don't mind the occasional tea with me and DC or whatever, I do not want to put myself in the position of committing to contact or a schedule with his older children.

I appreciate though it's going to be big changes for everyone and probably a lot of upset. I did take on the role a mother probably would in terms of practical care for DSC day to day but they certainly don't see me as their Mum and still very much love their DM despite the issues.

I just don't know what to do for the best.

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop
That says a lot about you that you wouldn't want your children to have contact with someone who loves them and has played a meaningful role in their life.
As mentioned previously a friend of mine has recently taken his own child and ex step child on holiday. He regularly has them both over to his. No one has an issue with this at all. It's all about what's best for the kids.

I’m going to go against the grain here. If 2 children had been living with me from the ages of 5 and 8, I’d find it hard to have just the occasional tea with them. I do understand it’s not your responsibility to parent them, and the arrangement you had can’t continue, but I do feel somewhat sorry for them.

@DancingQueen85

It's been asked several times if the same expectation would be put on a man. My answer to that is yes absolutely. I know several wonderful step dads who have maintained a great relationship with their step children after separating from their mother. One has just taken his own child and the step child on holiday. It can be done when the interests of the children are put first. My personal opinion is that if you get married to someone with kids you are making a long term commitment to those children.

Please explain how that last bit is in the small print of marrying someone with kids, even though it's perfectly possible to divorce said person, the one you actually make a legal commitment to.

@aSofaNearYou
What part of it did you not understand? As I stated in my "personal opinion" if you a marrying someone with kids you are also making a commitment to those kids. Legally you are absolutely right there is no obligation but I believe that this is what a decent human should do.

[quote DancingQueen85]@aSofaNearYou
What part of it did you not understand? As I stated in my "personal opinion" if you a marrying someone with kids you are also making a commitment to those kids. Legally you are absolutely right there is no obligation but I believe that this is what a decent human should do.[/quote]
Yes, but the commitment to the parent has ended, so the commitment to the children naturally ends, too. There's no real logic behind saying otherwise. Why would that add-on commitment be permanent, when the primary commitment is not?

When you have kids and you choose to get into a relationship, you have to accept that you will be exposing your kids to someone that can and probably will walk away if you split up one day. That's a risk you take. The only people with a truly permanent commitment are parents.

I applaud you, OP, for having the courage to leave your unhealthy marriage and to stand up to your DH, who is using emotional blackmail to continue to get what he wants.

Now that you've taken this brave step, I think it's important that you don't backtrack and start agreeing to his demands to set up an official agreement regarding you looking after the DSCs. As long as there is no official agreement - and that includes listing you as a contact at schools, clubs etc. - then the power lies with you to decide when and where you will see them, and that should be based on what you think is best for you, your DC and, should you wish to consider it, the DSCs themselves. You may not know how you will feel if you have the control, because you haven't had much choice previously. It could be that you will want to spend time with them and decide to have them to stay on a particular weekend, for example, but that doesn't mean that your DH can insist on them coming on other weekends. If he asks, just say no. Hopefully you'll find that after the first few no's it becomes easier and easier and you won't need to worry about slippery slopes.

@aSofaNearYou
But getting up and walking out on a kids life is a shitty thing to do. The right thing to do in my opinion is to make a permanent commitment to them even if the marriage doesn't work out.
How that looks can of course vary hugely depending on the people involved.
In the OP's case she has been these children's primary carer for 4 years, she is also there sisters mother. These are vulnerable kids who have a mother who has abandoned them and a Dad who sounds pretty useless. None of this is the OP's fault but to cut things off with these kids would be massively harsh. She has asked for advice and in my opinion I thinks she needs to maintain a good amount of contact. Someone mentioned one dinner and over night stay a week which seems like a good starting point to me

[quote DancingQueen85]@aSofaNearYou
But getting up and walking out on a kids life is a shitty thing to do. The right thing to do in my opinion is to make a permanent commitment to them even if the marriage doesn't work out.
How that looks can of course vary hugely depending on the people involved.
In the OP's case she has been these children's primary carer for 4 years, she is also there sisters mother. These are vulnerable kids who have a mother who has abandoned them and a Dad who sounds pretty useless. None of this is the OP's fault but to cut things off with these kids would be massively harsh. She has asked for advice and in my opinion I thinks she needs to maintain a good amount of contact. Someone mentioned one dinner and over night stay a week which seems like a good starting point to me [/quote]
Well then you can say in your opinion you should not make a commitment to a parent unless you are prepared for the subsequent commitment to their hild to be irreversible regardless of circumstances (though why anyone would sign up to it in those circumstances I don't know), but you really cannot say that that IS what happens when you marry someone with kids. Because it isn't, and you can't expect others to live by those standards.

[quote DancingQueen85]@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop
That says a lot about you that you wouldn't want your children to have contact with someone who loves them and has played a meaningful role in their life.
As mentioned previously a friend of mine has recently taken his own child and ex step child on holiday. He regularly has them both over to his. No one has an issue with this at all. It's all about what's best for the kids. [/quote]
Well good for him but no I wouldn't want my kids having regular contact and sleepovers with an ex-stepmother. The time they have needs to be split between 2 households not 3. And I'm amazed anyone would let their child go on holiday alone with a man who isn't their father. To me that's a safeguarding concern.

Also, fuck this infantilisation of children. Carrying on like pretend, one night a week like people are suggesting - children aren't idiots, they know what splitting up means, it's just cruelly delaying the inevitable.

[quote DancingQueen85]@aSofaNearYou
What part of it did you not understand? As I stated in my "personal opinion" if you a marrying someone with kids you are also making a commitment to those kids. Legally you are absolutely right there is no obligation but I believe that this is what a decent human should do.[/quote]
Only a commitment so far as you're with their parent.

Where does it end? Divorce a man with a 5yo, then see that 5yo every week til they're 18? Organise Birthday parties? Look round universities with them? Be in their wedding party. It's just fucking weird and massively unfair to the parent if, like the OP, they were part of an abusive and/or coercive relationship.

[quote DancingQueen85]@aSofaNearYou
But getting up and walking out on a kids life is a shitty thing to do. The right thing to do in my opinion is to make a permanent commitment to them even if the marriage doesn't work out.
How that looks can of course vary hugely depending on the people involved.
In the OP's case she has been these children's primary carer for 4 years, she is also there sisters mother. These are vulnerable kids who have a mother who has abandoned them and a Dad who sounds pretty useless. None of this is the OP's fault but to cut things off with these kids would be massively harsh. She has asked for advice and in my opinion I thinks she needs to maintain a good amount of contact. Someone mentioned one dinner and over night stay a week which seems like a good starting point to me [/quote]
So she has to have children stay over a night a week for the next 9 years? Is she getting maintenance for them? Where will they stay? Should she have to get a 4 bed house so everyone is happy? What happens when her ex gets a new woman? Or she gets a new partner? Is it ok when nannies who are primary carers of children walk out never to see them again?

a Dad who sounds pretty useless

He's held down an intense and active full-on job for a long time.

He's not useless. He's contemptuous of the parenting role. It's Someone Else's Problem. Douglas Adams identified SEPs in the Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy a long time ago, funnily enough.

I’ve held down an active full time high paying job. And managed to parent my own kids instead of palming them off to boyfriends I’d managed to con into becoming my skivvy.

I also managed to work around my childcare needs when my dc needed me.

And when I upped my working hours I paid for childcare.

My kids as a result are happy and well adjusted and we are very close.

This is nothing to do with a step parent. This is all on the utterly shitty parents these poor kids have been landed with.

The thing I find sad is that the OP’s child is being separated from her siblings. The OP may not be related to the other children but, through her own child, she has a lifelong connection to them. Her child and the other children share a father and have been raised together. She’s breaking up a sibling group. That’s going to be devastating for them.

@ApplyWithin

The thing I find sad is that the OP’s child is being separated from her siblings. The OP may not be related to the other children but, through her own child, she has a lifelong connection to them. Her child and the other children share a father and have been raised together. She’s breaking up a sibling group. That’s going to be devastating for them.

They'll be seeing them regularly.

At their father's house.

@DancingQueen85

It's been asked several times if the same expectation would be put on a man. My answer to that is yes absolutely. I know several wonderful step dads who have maintained a great relationship with their step children after separating from their mother. One has just taken his own child and the step child on holiday. It can be done when the interests of the children are put first. My personal opinion is that if you get married to someone with kids you are making a long term commitment to those children.

How many of those men left because they were the household slave and doing all the parenting, and knew if they gave an inch contact wise their ex would be expecting school runs, uniform washing homework management sport attendance and taxiing, meals etc? Circumstances matter. The situations don’t compare.

Please ignore the goady feckers on this thread @JudgeJerry. There is a longstanding tradition of virtue-signalling weirdos on these threads of people who are very liberal with the financial and time resources of others. And yet, if anyone were to follow those preposterous expectations, there would be a chorus of posters calling you a pathetic doormat. Fact is that you are still very young and spent years being taken for granted and exploited by an entitled fucker of the highest order. You were emotionally blackmailed into becoming the caretaker and skivvy by a ruthless pisstaker. This according to you was the among the main reason for your split. So, why on earth would you continue to enable this CF without any possible benefits of a relationship. It isn’t an easy situation and you need to steel yourself against the emotional blackmail from all sides. The only person/s you owe anything to is yourself and your own DC. Take a total break, severe all ties to reset any outrageous expectations. Going forward, if your ex stops being an outrageous CF, you can arrange for a few special meetings/outings with your DSC. I would stipulate that those are somewhere where you don’t have to cook, pick up his DC or have to go out of your way to relieve him form his own parental duties. Perhaps a nice dinner in some child-friendly restaurant every 2-3 weeks, which he pays for his DC! He will have to drop off and collect them. That way, it sets a very clear signal that it is purely about contact and quality time with them.

Let's see. According to some, OP's ex is fine having their one DC EOW + 1 weekday evening. But in return OP should have his two DC overnight every week including pickup/drop off at school + whenever else she can manage. Yeah, I can see how that's equitable for the three children, not to mention OP and her STBX. 🙄

It seems to be that according to lots of these comments, you have to be one of two extremes. Either OP has to be involved in sleepovers, school runs and full parental duties or else never see her stepchildren again. It's all a bit bonkers.

I find it quite sad, very sad actually, that the OP doesn't seem to be bothered whether she sees her stepchildren any more. In her own words, she was the primary carer for two small children for four years - how do you not build up a close bond in that time?

Th ex sounds like a nightmare, and I don't think OP should let him off the hook. I absolutely think school runs/overnights etc should be firmly his responsibility. I don't think OP should take any actual responsibility but I do think that the decent, kind and loving thing to do would be to stay in the children's lives. If she doesn't want to though, and doesn't love them, then there's no point. But I find that unbelievably callous, if that's the case. I've looked through OP's comments and I'm struggling to see any real expression of warmth towards them. Poor bloody kids.

Incidentally, my DP isn't the father to my DC, but he's been in their life for some time. I know absolutely that if we split he'd be heartbroken not to still have contact with them even though they're only stepchildren to him - and they would be devastated to lose him too.

I also come from divorced parents. My dad's girlfriend disappeared after they'd been together several years. I was quite a bit older, late teens, but I was still bloody devastated. And she wasn't the maternal type AT ALL, never wanted kids but I loved her to bits and we got on really well. (Long story, she had a break down and disappeared - turned up in a psych hospital hundreds of miles away). To this day I feel her absence in my life - and that was over 20 years ago.

It's entirely possible to have an ongoing, loving relationship with these children - who are still very young - even if you're not "mum". Aunties, godmothers etc still make time for children - even though they're not their parents. I don't see why OP couldn't be in this kind of role - no responsibility though. I can't get past someone being willing to just not bother with them any more - OP can't have this "clean break" she wants (which I totally understand) because she has to co-parent their biological child.

Those kids are going to grow up feeling desperately unwanted and rejected by everyone.

Just to pick up on being tied if you were to collect from school for tea at your house - if they're 9 & 12, will they need to be collected, or would you just be able to invite them to go round to yours after school instead of them going home? That is much less of a commitment in childcare terms?

(Sorry if this has already been said as I couldn't read the whole thread - need to get to bed - but just wanted to query this as it may have a bearing on the balance of power, so to speak.)

Your biggest priority is your child @JudgeJerry and getting them through what's going to be a tough transition for you all. I know I'm going to sound harsh here but how he decides to raise his children from his first partner is up to him. You have to look after you and yours or he'll run rings round you. Try not to have any loopholes he can use to get you to take over the DSCs care because if you do (eg. the schools drop off, etc.) he'll abuse the shit out of them. He's shot himself in the foot by treating you badly, now he must deal with the consequences. Also, playing devils advocate here but if the DSC are going to go through another traumatic breakup (the first one being their mum), there's no knowing how they'll react towards you and your child. Could they be vindictive and make false accusations for example? That might mean your DC could be taken away and given to him? Think EVERYTHING through. I'd personally agree to some contact between the siblings provided he was there to supervise. I'd also contact social services and alert them to the situation, eg. Negligent father soon to be left in charge of two minors and let them take over.

No schedule.

Just occasional visits arranged ad hoc.

Tell the DSC you love them, will miss them, and they must come to come to visit sometimes but you need to get yourself settled first. (and also your DC will definitely want to go to their house to see them - would not want to miss it). Have a gap for a month while you get settled with your DC (only contact then is when DC goes to STBX and sees DSC there).. After that invite DSC about once a week (but STBX has to bring and collect) - and no pressure if they do not want to come. Then just see how it goes. I'm pretty sure it will taper off as they go through the teens as they will want to be more independent. Definitely you must not make a fixed schedule now. it would lead to disappointment if you have to renege. It will work out. Good luck!

It sounds like you were basically an (unpaid) nanny to these children.

So, what do nannies do when they move on to other families? I don’t suppose many have weekly contact.

Sorry haven’t read whole thread . So this might have been said already but:
These children have been rejected by their mother and to be rejected by a second major attachment figure would be really damaging.
But love doesn’t equal time spent with them.
I would suggest seeing them maybe once or twice a month on your terms.
I would maybe pick up from school and drop of next morning back to school. That way you avoid ex , who will no doubt muck you about if you have a pick up or drop off to him arrangement.
Children aren’t silly and when they are older they will understand that you weren’t involved in their lives so much as you split with their dad. But they will still feel you loved them as you saw them regularly.
Make it quality time. It will also benefit your own child to have this time with siblings.

@JudgeJerry firstly you must be bloody drained and exhausted

Going through a break up is awful no matter how right it all is, and trying to create boundaries when the other party is always happy to break them takes a lot of effort.

I think there are two issues getting confused, the first is your ex and not wanting him to take advantage, the second is your and dc’s, relationship with his children.

If you remove the first bit and put it to one side for now, would you be happy in theory to pick the kids up from school every Wednesday, keep them until after tea, let them play all that time (no checking homework is done or parenting work, just play date style) and then he picks them up afterwards? That seems really reasonable to me.

You know he’ll try and push boundaries anyway. I know you say you don’t want to do a pick up because he’ll then ask for more, but he’s going to ask for more regardless. Decide on what is right for you and the dcs and stop there.

I have a pushy ex although in different ways, it took me a while to realise that I didn’t have to engage with him when he brought out all his arguments, I could just say no and once I’d said it, ignore him. That moment when you finally realise they can’t manipulate you anymore is amazing.

He’ll probably try to suggest you take the other dcs when you pick up your dc, or try to drop them off. If that’s the case you say a breezy, “can’t do that right now but I can’t wait to see you on Wednesday” big hugs and skip away or shut the door.

One thing you should do is make sure the schools know what is happening so they can offer support if needed. (If you haven’t already)

It’s time he stepped up, this could be the best thing to happen to their relationship if he does.

Good luck with it all, but don’t let trying not to do him a favour be a factor in your decision. Do what feels like a good limit for you and the dcs.