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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Possibly a sensitive topic but AIBU to say no to this?

999 replies

JudgeJerry · 17/08/2021 12:05

Have lurked here for a little while but my first post.

My husband and I are separating. There is a whole host of reasons for this but one of the big ones is I just felt like I got no help from him with anything, he was always working and everything else was left to me (I also work). Resentment was starting to build massively and he has never done anything to change things despite us going over this so many times, suggesting counselling etc...

We have one DC together and my husband has two older DC from a previous relationship who live with him full time and see their mother on a very ad-hoc basis, contact with their DM has been this way for about 4 years now (issues I won't go into here).

We are trying to arrange contact arrangements with our DC, and we have been arguing basically about my DSC. He thinks it would be right for them to continue having some form of schedule to see myself and their half sibling. I do not agree. They will obviously still see their half sibling, our DC, when they go to their Dad's but I don't see why this needs to involve me.

Whilst I do care for my step children, this is one of the things that caused so many issues in our relationship, that I felt he pushed everything onto me in regards to the children, I basically took over everything and he didn't change a thing. Which is something that seems to be common place from my reading on here.

I highly suspect he is saying this is 'right and fair' so that he continues getting help from me with childcare.

Quite honestly I'm just ready for a clean break or as clean a break as we can possibly manage with DC in the mix and, whilst I don't mind the occasional tea with me and DC or whatever, I do not want to put myself in the position of committing to contact or a schedule with his older children.

I appreciate though it's going to be big changes for everyone and probably a lot of upset. I did take on the role a mother probably would in terms of practical care for DSC day to day but they certainly don't see me as their Mum and still very much love their DM despite the issues.

I just don't know what to do for the best.

OP posts:
prettybird · 18/08/2021 17:23

I agree that you are doing your best in a shitty situation brought on by your STBXH

By even asking the questions about how best to deal with this and pondering ad hoc versus regular visits for your dscs while not wanting to slip back into caring responsibilities as could so easily happen given their father's nature you have shown that you are - contrary to a few deluded and/or nasty posters - a very caring and mature young woman.

You've had some good advice, but I'll add a practical point (it's been touched on already but on one occasion sarcastically which some people didn't get): sleepovers may not be practical unless you can afford a three or even four bedroom house. I doubt that your STBXH is going to give you sufficient maintenance and/or a lump sum to pay the difference between a 2 bedroom house (which is all you need for you and your dc) and a 3 or 4 bedroom house Shock

And even if he did which is highly unlikely then he might use that as another way of coercing you into more childcare than you want to provide which is none

I agree that a "fun aunt" is the way to go. When you are ready and established in your new single life, you can have them visit for tea/days out on your terms , not his.

Kiduknot · 18/08/2021 17:24

You sound at breaking point and I can see why you just want to walk away, but for those poor children with a feckless mother and father, you are the one safe constant in their lives. It will be horrendous for you to exit and them not know when, or if, they will see you again. I don’t think you realise how important you will have been in their childhood.

For this reason I think it’s kinder to them, for them to know exactly when they will see you. At least every week to begin with. I know you are frightened to fall into the picking up from school, but once a week would help their stability and transition. You can absolutely refuse to do other days and if he says “but you do x day” you just say “so? I’m not doing more”

After a while when they get used to not having you in their life, then you can reduce contact, but please once a week at a set time will help them so much, especially if you can pick them up from school on that day and avoid their father letting them down, which he probably will.

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop · 18/08/2021 17:40

@SpindleWhorl

There is a lot of 'doormatting' and 'doormatting by proxy' on MN at the moment, especially on AIBU and Chat, the biggest boards. It's a curious dynamic for a mostly-women's website.

There are some really good posts too, though. I thought that @ButteringMyArse's post of 12.34 was very liberating.

There really is! I don't know what happened to this place.

I'm still reeling from my (now deleted as it got so heated) thread where exH caught COVID in his contact time and wanted me to pick the kids up as he was starting to feel unwell. Meaning my free time got eaten into, I'd miss a date with the man I'm seeing and I'd risk getting COVID. I asked what to do - even though any half decent parent would isolate with them if they got it in their contact time.

Wow I got my arse handed to me for not immediately driving 2 hours in a storm to get them just because exH had a sniffle. I got a total flaming because I was going on a date and had comments like "Yeah just let your kids get COVID just so you can have your fanny filled" Shock so even though unvaxxed exH had been with them all week, soooo many posters said it would be MY fault if they got COVID for not picking them up.

FWIW I did have my date that night and picked them up the next day. A lot of people apparently feel 'really sad' for my children.

I did get COVID in the end after collecting them and I've only just been able to get off the sofa. Some people on this thread attacking OP attacked me and will specifically be delighted at that news no doubt Grin

I do think this place has turned a very, very sexist corner and nothing shocks me anymore. There's most definitely been an MRA/F4J invasion in recent years and it's super obvious who these posters are

mbosnz · 18/08/2021 17:43

Oh no! I hadn't realised you did catch covid! That sucks! (I hadn't actually joined the dots and realised you were that poster. . .)

Honestly, men don't have to beat us up, they can sit back and let the wimmenfolk do it for them. And naturally, so much better. . .

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop · 18/08/2021 17:52

@mbosnz Indeed, so much internalised misogyny

Yea, they tested positive as soon as we got home, then me a few days later. We are out of isolation in 2 days but I had it pretty rough. I made a bed on the sofa and threw packets of crisps and chocolate bars at my kids for about 4 days, we have all survived Grin but I did get to a point where I thought "I can't believe I've got this on purpose to help out that prick". Hey ho. He was MOST disappointed that the kids would be out of isolation for his contact time this weekend Hmm

ShitShop · 18/08/2021 17:55

@user16395699

So, reading through I think it's fair to say you recognise these two children are already traumatised and will feel rejected/abandoned if you disappear entirely, but you are worried about how to balance that with extracting yourself from their father's control and domination as understandably you don't want to leave him but have nothing change.

My observations and practical suggestions...

I think because his control has basically been all you've known for your adult life it is very difficult right now for you to be able to imagine him being a presence in your life without still controlling you. For instance, you've mentioned a few times that you're worried if you have a set day where you pick them up to bring for tea / he drops off for tea that he will start pushing boundaries with phone calls saying he's running late so can you do school run etc. To me, the solution to that is very simple - you say no and don't enter discussion.

Right now, you live in the same home as them and you are a bit cowed from years of his domination. It is very difficult to say no to school runs and bedtime routines and all the rest when you are living in the same house (and you will also face consequences in your home for not submitting).

Whereas when you live separately your "no" is powerful and something you can enforce. He won't be living with you to make life uncomfortable at home if you say no, the children won't be living there for him to abdicate and get away with it.

Does the prospect of saying no to him frighten you in some way? Like when you imagine the hypothetical scenario of him phoning and trying to get you doing random school runs once you've separated, does it frighten you to imagine yourself simply saying no and sticking to it? Can you just not even imagine having the power to say no?

The big difference once you are living separately and on the way to divorce, is that you are going to have power and control you have not had before. It will take you some time to learn to navigate that given the background and that it will be new unfamiliar territory for you, but you will have power and with a bit of time you will be comfortable with it.

So even if you choose to have limited set fun visits from the children for their benefit not his, because you unlike him are a decent person (a framing that will also make a difference to how you feel about it, instead of viewing it as him winning or whatever), it won't be how things are now. It won't be a continuation of the situation you are seeking to leave, it will be very, very different.

So you can decide what your boundaries are and you can enforce them. If he tries to push them you say no and stand firm. If you initially struggle adjusting to having that power you can write them down for yourself and write a short letter to yourself reminding you that you can say no, that you have power now, that any contact you have is for the welfare and benefit of the children not him, etc. (Written reminders can really help in moments where we feel overwhelmed).

For instance, those boundaries might be no school runs, no medical appointments (other than an emergency while with you obviously), no parents evenings, no regular sleepovers/no sleepovers, no proper parenting basically. But that you will see them regularly and consistently from a relationship point of view to spend time doing fun things without the parenting role - and then the types of things you're happy with (coming over for tea a couple of times per month, a fun day out once a month, a sleepover in the summer, birthday cards, whatever).

Model it on a family friend or aunt type relationship - maybe write yourself bullet points of what you won't do anymore and what you will do. That will keep it clear in your mind if he tries to push your boundaries and also enable you to be clear and consistent with the children (both in how you behave and how you communicate or answer their questions) so they feel secure from knowing where they stand with you.

You don't have to cut them out of your life to cut off their domineering father's power over you. Although I appreciate it's probably quite hard for you to visualise that now, that's just because his domination has worn you down - it will be possible and you will be able to see that once you have some distance from him.

Sorry to just quote such a huge chunk but I think this post deserves repeating. I’d like to think this is how I would handle it in your position OP.

As it is, I’ve kept my distance from DP’s DCs for this very reason - he technically has them 100% of the time as they stay at his house, where their mum is supposed to visit them, but their mum lets them down on a regular basis when she is supposed to be seeing them, so he relies on other family to step up on the days he isn’t there. I knew I’d fall into a parenting dynamic if we moved in together and I already have 3 of my own, so I kept my own place and see the SDCs a few times a year, when I’m perfectly friendly and more like an aunt type figure than a parent. DP on the other hand is quite involved with my DCs when he’s here and has said that he’d miss them if we split and that he loves them (not like his own I’m sure, but he’s very fond of them). He’d be more likely to want to see them after a split but he certainly wouldn’t expect (& neither would I) any kind of formal arrangement or childcare as such. It might be a meal out every now and again or the odd text message.

I like the idea of dinner at your ex’s house. As awkward as it might seem, it would say all the right things, in that your relationship with them is not independent of their dad, and that he’s not only responsible for caring for them, but also for the continuing bond with you and your DS.

FWIW my ex comes round for dinner quite regularly when he’s in the country and it’s fine. Was weird to start with but as the years have gone by I’ve forgiven his crappy behaviour when we were married and we coparent ok. I do sometimes suggest that he buy the takeaway as I’m the one feeding everyone the rest of the time, and I don’t want him taking the piss. If he had a house I’d definitely be going there for dinner instead of inviting him to mine!

MzHz · 18/08/2021 18:07

Doormatting, that’s a very good term.
And yes it’s scarily prevalent

And the step mum can do only wrong bs

Add this to the threats to women by the gender debate, the rise of incels and the general treatment of us by men who hate women, its a very uneasy space being a woman atm.

We none of us have any responsibility to other people’s children past being kind and pleasant.

To try and guilt trip someone who’s been manipulated and controlled her and whole adult life to pick up the job that the crap dad cba to do because of no more reason than she has a vagina and bumps on her jumper is appalling

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop I’m so sorry you suffered so much. Your ex is a total arse. The kids will grow up to realise this

JacquelineCarlyle · 18/08/2021 18:07

[quote FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop]@mbosnz Indeed, so much internalised misogyny

Yea, they tested positive as soon as we got home, then me a few days later. We are out of isolation in 2 days but I had it pretty rough. I made a bed on the sofa and threw packets of crisps and chocolate bars at my kids for about 4 days, we have all survived Grin but I did get to a point where I thought "I can't believe I've got this on purpose to help out that prick". Hey ho. He was MOST disappointed that the kids would be out of isolation for his contact time this weekend Hmm[/quote]
I remember your thread - I was completely on your side (as I am with the Op here).

Sorry you got so ill but glad you're starting to feel better. I really can never understand women who seem to enjoy piling on other women & blaming them for useless men! Crazy!

aSofaNearYou · 18/08/2021 18:12

I like the idea of dinner at your ex’s house. As awkward as it might seem, it would say all the right things, in that your relationship with them is not independent of their dad, and that he’s not only responsible for caring for them, but also for the continuing bond with you and your DS.

I feel trapped and claustrophobic just reading that.

SpindleWhorl · 18/08/2021 18:21

Doormatting, that’s a very good term.

Thanks. Gifted to MN!

And @FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop - your experience is so similar to mine, and I wish you a good recovery.

ExH once missed a contact weekend with our DC because of 'work shifts'. DD ran into him on the beach with his gf and mates having a bbq. It's like parenting is beneath them, somewhere below 'social life' and 'my personal wants and needs'.

Askingforfriend · 18/08/2021 18:33

"Is this ever said to men in this situation? No"

I absolutely would say the same to my sons if they spent years married to someone who had young kids who lived full-time with them.

She has zero parental responsibilities e.g. school, activities, overnight etc, but regular contact is important to kids who have had some crap dealt them. I agree with previous poster about modeling relationship on that of an aunt.

I'm not suggesting vast amounts of time, an hour once a week would be fine, cards on birthday etc, ir could even be done by phone but I'm guessing father wouldn't allow that.

Dasher789 · 18/08/2021 18:57

Are the DSC 9 and 12? Its such a tough situation and I see where you are coming from. It would just be such a shame for the two kids to lose another mother figure. If they are moving into high school or have exams, it could really affect them. I'm not sure what to suggest for the best but I think you should have a chat with DSC at the very least and let them know if they ever want to talk to you etc to call or text you and you will support them as best you can (if you are will to!). Sorry this isn't that helpful but good luck Flowers

StCharlotte · 18/08/2021 19:04

@user16395699

So, reading through I think it's fair to say you recognise these two children are already traumatised and will feel rejected/abandoned if you disappear entirely, but you are worried about how to balance that with extracting yourself from their father's control and domination as understandably you don't want to leave him but have nothing change.

My observations and practical suggestions...

I think because his control has basically been all you've known for your adult life it is very difficult right now for you to be able to imagine him being a presence in your life without still controlling you. For instance, you've mentioned a few times that you're worried if you have a set day where you pick them up to bring for tea / he drops off for tea that he will start pushing boundaries with phone calls saying he's running late so can you do school run etc. To me, the solution to that is very simple - you say no and don't enter discussion.

Right now, you live in the same home as them and you are a bit cowed from years of his domination. It is very difficult to say no to school runs and bedtime routines and all the rest when you are living in the same house (and you will also face consequences in your home for not submitting).

Whereas when you live separately your "no" is powerful and something you can enforce. He won't be living with you to make life uncomfortable at home if you say no, the children won't be living there for him to abdicate and get away with it.

Does the prospect of saying no to him frighten you in some way? Like when you imagine the hypothetical scenario of him phoning and trying to get you doing random school runs once you've separated, does it frighten you to imagine yourself simply saying no and sticking to it? Can you just not even imagine having the power to say no?

The big difference once you are living separately and on the way to divorce, is that you are going to have power and control you have not had before. It will take you some time to learn to navigate that given the background and that it will be new unfamiliar territory for you, but you will have power and with a bit of time you will be comfortable with it.

So even if you choose to have limited set fun visits from the children for their benefit not his, because you unlike him are a decent person (a framing that will also make a difference to how you feel about it, instead of viewing it as him winning or whatever), it won't be how things are now. It won't be a continuation of the situation you are seeking to leave, it will be very, very different.

So you can decide what your boundaries are and you can enforce them. If he tries to push them you say no and stand firm. If you initially struggle adjusting to having that power you can write them down for yourself and write a short letter to yourself reminding you that you can say no, that you have power now, that any contact you have is for the welfare and benefit of the children not him, etc. (Written reminders can really help in moments where we feel overwhelmed).

For instance, those boundaries might be no school runs, no medical appointments (other than an emergency while with you obviously), no parents evenings, no regular sleepovers/no sleepovers, no proper parenting basically. But that you will see them regularly and consistently from a relationship point of view to spend time doing fun things without the parenting role - and then the types of things you're happy with (coming over for tea a couple of times per month, a fun day out once a month, a sleepover in the summer, birthday cards, whatever).

Model it on a family friend or aunt type relationship - maybe write yourself bullet points of what you won't do anymore and what you will do. That will keep it clear in your mind if he tries to push your boundaries and also enable you to be clear and consistent with the children (both in how you behave and how you communicate or answer their questions) so they feel secure from knowing where they stand with you.

You don't have to cut them out of your life to cut off their domineering father's power over you. Although I appreciate it's probably quite hard for you to visualise that now, that's just because his domination has worn you down - it will be possible and you will be able to see that once you have some distance from him.

This is your answer OP Smile
SeoultoSeoul · 18/08/2021 19:06

I wouldn't worry OP, he will be plotting to install a replacement for you as soon as. Wink

LimeJellyforBrains · 18/08/2021 19:39

Well done for getting out OP, I'm so pleased for you Flowers

Just a couple of points come to mind:

How about a video call now and then with the DSC, instead of an in-person visit? To them, texting and/or video calling will seem like perfectly normal and valid methods of staying in touch.

No idea why anyone is even suggesting any visits to your house on a school night. Keep any visits to weekend daytimes. Then there's no problems with school pick-ups etc. My sons found the midweek visits to their dad very hard to manage in terms of remembering to take all the right books for both homework and the next day. Your eldest DSC is at secondary school so will have quite bit of homework. Bonus for him - he can have a couple of hours sometimes on a weekend to do his food shopping and housework! Wink Grin

I agree with the posters saying forget about 'balance' when you are trying to deal with a selfish, manipulative shit. Promise NOTHING to him. Keep in touch with the DSC (if you want to) on your own terms. They are both old enough to use phones.

MzHz · 18/08/2021 19:41

@SeoultoSeoul

I wouldn't worry OP, he will be plotting to install a replacement for you as soon as. Wink
Blokes like him will not be interested in parenting l. So any schedule set up with @JudgeJerry will be tossed in a matter of months
lunar1 · 18/08/2021 19:48

I have been in a similar position to the children, and I would honestly stop contact. It's heartbreaking for them either way and something that too many parents overlook when creating a blended family.

Dinner every other week won't make up for losing the only mother figure they have really had. You and the children have absolutely no rights, do you think he will carry on with what you agree to now once he moves on.

I don't think they will benefit from this awful situation being dragged out. They can grieve properly, hopefully they will get some support from school, they have lost a lot in their short lives and have an asshole for a dad.

SequinsandStiIettos · 18/08/2021 21:04

If they are moving into high school or have exams, it could really affect them
12 year old assume will be in year 9 soon so not GCSE yet, 9 year old will be year 4/5 so not SATS yet. In that respect, if out by Autumn, OP has timed it well in that they have a transition year before year 6 and year 10. Two years time bring exams and a new school, long enough for initial dust to settle?

comingintomyown · 18/08/2021 21:20

Clean break, they can all see each other at their Dads with ad hocks teas if you or them feel inclined.
All the other talk is just too complicated and will hamper your detachment from your DH and everyone getting used to the new situation

Speakeasy22 · 18/08/2021 21:53

Honestly OP just ignore the posters criticising you. That is just totally goady. Don't engage with them. There ARE two parents to these children. He will have to sort the situation out. It is time now to do what suits you and treat the DSC with kindness (which I'm sure you will) without talking any responsibility for them.

greenlynx · 18/08/2021 22:37

OP, you only need to think about interests of one child - your DC. So I would stay in your DSC’s life only as a mother of their sibling with whom they spend time occasionally depending on their ages, joint interests and how they are getting on.
Strict no to any sort of regular arrangements. You might take them somewhere for DC’s birthday or for occasional playdate over holidays but only if it fits with your DC’s interests and of course, if your DSC agree with this.
I also suspect that your ex will be commenting negatively about you to his children and it might affect their relationship with your DC so seeing them occasionally will help you to counter this.
I also would notify DSC’s school once you divorced and ask them to remove your name as their contact. Of course you might stay as an additional emergency contact but only if you wish.

Ducksurprise · 18/08/2021 22:53

@FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop I was looking for the end of your post, I agreed completely with you (and OP) and agree that the doormatting is rife atm. Glad you are feeling better

ToykotoLosAngeles · 18/08/2021 22:55

Do not stay as an extra emergency contact or you'll end up spending random Tuesdays with a 9-year-old on your sofa complaining that they feel sick.

DancingQueen85 · 18/08/2021 23:09

It's been asked several times if the same expectation would be put on a man. My answer to that is yes absolutely.
I know several wonderful step dads who have maintained a great relationship with their step children after separating from their mother. One has just taken his own child and the step child on holiday. It can be done when the interests of the children are put first.
My personal opinion is that if you get married to someone with kids you are making a long term commitment to those children.

FrangipaniDeLaSqueegeeMop · 18/08/2021 23:23

@DancingQueen85 no, you make a commitment to your partner, and when you split up with them the commitment to them and the children ends.

Otherwise people who've had 3 or 4 marriages will essentially have 12 'children'.

Not to mention in most split families, the parents both have contact time and I can't imagine any parent being happy they now have to share their children with their ex's ex! I certainly wouldn't go for it with my exH's girlfriends even if he married one of them.