To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

@newyorker74

Trump pulled out around 12,000 US troops in the last 2 months of his presidency. He also released over 5,000 Taliban prisoners against the wishes of the Afghan government. His secretary of state met with the leader of the Taliban and promised that US troops would be out by may 1. The Taliban have spent the last 9 months moving across the country bribing local leaders to allow them safe passage (would love to know where that money came from) knowing that the only way the US could stay was to bring back the 12,000 troops and add more. Biden had an impossible job. Where we are is the result of 20 plus years of bad choices and lies by pretty much every US leader on all sides but your anger should mainly be focused on George W Bush and Cheney who started a war to win an election in a country which had done nothing to the US and had no wish for us to be there.

^this

Biden has been unfortunately caught at the tail end of Trump’s plans.

What is shocking is that the left wing friends I have (tbh, I don't know anyone on the right in an American, Trump sense) are all so loyal to the democrats that there can be no criticism at all. Thye are just deflecting at Trump. It's a mirror image of Trump supporters and a poor reflection of US politics, so tribal.

The withdrawal was put in place by Trump. He negotiated theconditional peace deal in 2020that agreed the withdrawal of US and NATO forces. Biden should have u-turned on this but tricky when the wheels were already in motion and the withdrawal had the backing of the majority of the American public.

Tricky????? He’s the POTUS.

Withdrawing the troops had to happen at some point but in such a way that it didn’t make the last 20 years of occupation absolutely pointless surely. How many soldiers have needlessly died to just allow the Taliban to return to power.

How would have withdrawn and also stopped them returning to power?

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

He talks the talk about female rights by championing his wife’s career and having a female Vice President

Only because he wants to appeal to young black voters and female voters.

If Trump is an old school outspoken sexist, then creepy Joe is the 'hiding in plain sight' version.
www.thecut.com/2020/04/joe-biden-accuser-accusations-allegations.html

Also, someone who thinks that men can be women because of a feeling, is no supporter of women's rights.

Yet one of his first acts as president was to screw women over for trans people. (and yes I do know that it was well publicised before he got in to office).

And now the immediate removal of troops from Afghanistan instead of the staged removal that it was supposed to be.

@Blessex

How he can sleep at night after seeing those people on the news this morning falling from the sky after trying to jump onto a taxiing military plane is beyond me.

This. Horrible images.

And what makes you think he does sleep at night and that the choices he has to make will sit on him long term. He was one of the fee leaders who thought going into Afghanistan was a bad idea in the first place so the idea that he wouldn't feel his choices is crap.

@AlexaIWillNeverSayDucking

What is shocking is that the left wing friends I have (tbh, I don't know anyone on the right in an American, Trump sense) are all so loyal to the democrats that there can be no criticism at all. Thye are just deflecting at Trump. It's a mirror image of Trump supporters and a poor reflection of US politics, so tribal.

They'll them they are supporting abuse of a man with dementia. He's no saint, but he's still being used. It's so messed up.

@MopaniTree

I read so much criticism of Trump but when it comes down to it, what did he actually do that was materially so awful?

I think Biden comes across as more "Presidential" but in fact his actions in the short time since coming into office have had an awful impact on women's rights and now on Afghanistan.

I agree with this, and with the OP that Biden is a disaster.

I read so much criticism of Trump but when it comes down to it, what did he actually do that was materially so awful?

Rampant corruption, incompetence, bigotry, misogyny, racism, - to say nothing of killing thousands of Americans by virtue of his woeful response to Covid. And that's just for starters.

Trump pulled out around 12,000 US troops in the last 2 months of his presidency. He also released over 5,000 Taliban prisoners against the wishes of the Afghan government. His secretary of state met with the leader of the Taliban and promised that US troops would be out by may 1. The Taliban have spent the last 9 months moving across the country bribing local leaders to allow them safe passage (would love to know where that money came from) knowing that the only way the US could stay was to bring back the 12,000 troops and add more.

Fair point. Would people prefer this alternative - This and more sent back?

@AlexaIWillNeverSayDucking

What is shocking is that the left wing friends I have (tbh, I don't know anyone on the right in an American, Trump sense) are all so loyal to the democrats that there can be no criticism at all. Thye are just deflecting at Trump. It's a mirror image of Trump supporters and a poor reflection of US politics, so tribal.

You may need to stretch your friend base. Most of the democrats I know (including The elected ones) are agast at the scenes we are seeing and appalled by what is taking place and shouting loudly about the way in which this has happened.

What is the rest of the world doing about Afghanistan?

@Iusedtobesoooomuchfun

He's senile. He's definitely got some sort of dementia. The whole things is awful.

I have no idea where you get this idea from. Do you have any evidence? He's obviously a lot more with it cognitively than Trump was.

MopaniTree
I read so much criticism of Trump but when it comes down to it, what did he actually do that was materially so awful?

www.mcsweeneys.net/columns/reasons-why-donald-trump-is-unfit-to-be-president

The original source of this problem has nothing to do with Biden or Trump. I don't know the history as well as I should, but it predates both of them by at least a few decades. See for example this glowing praise by Reagan for the "Islamic Union of Muhajedeen of Afghanistan."

Biden will get the political blame for this withdrawal, because although Trump initiated it, he was politically canny enough not to complete it while he was still in office -- instead he announced it, took the political credit for willingness to bring home American troops, and then left the problems for his successor, to whom he could then attribute the blame.

Biden's over-wokeness on certain other issues is also a serious problem.

But neither of these should not be allowed to overshadow some of the even bigger issues, such as climate change, on which Biden is clearly on the right side of history. Women's rights (and human rights) won't matter much anywhere if humanity drives itself to extinction through environmental degradation.

And given pp mentioned promises made to withdraw already what would the outcome have been if not kept? With already reduced number

@Iusedtobesoooomuchfun

He's senile. He's definitely got some sort of dementia. The whole things is awful.

It's really offensive to use the word senile when you mean dementia.

@Anonymous48

Are you kidding... Evidence. It's out there for you to watch. They are some shocking videos.
He didn't remember his mum is dead ans asked where she was during a conference. Being shown on television. He then believed their person who told him "she's watching at home"
Theres evidence everywhere. He's sinile.

OK, he's not senile. He has dementia.

I don't think making comparisons has much of a benefit, even if tempting.

As already said, multiple surveys have shown most Americans have supported withdraw for a while and this wasn't a unilateral decision by Biden (maybe by the US, but not him alone).

This is going to leave a mark, but it would have whoever was President. The Taliban was never really eliminated, I was just seeing a report that even in 2017 about half of the population of Afghanistan was in an area with some Taliban influence or control, it's reported that the President left with a significant amount of money and troops and the often touted '300k soldiers' likely wasn't true, between trouble recruiting, the high casualty rate for years and a high rate of desertion, partially from what has been said because of high rates of corruption involving those higher up the chain pocketing soldiers and 'ghost soldiers'. There were so many issues and many of them the US can't do anything about by not withdrawing.

We don't know what would have if Trump (or any of the other possible candidates whether one of the other Democrats like Yang or Gabbard or even 3rd party like Jorgensen, pretty much every candidate I can think spoke about being very much in favour of withdraw) had won, Trump also supported withdraw and I go between thinking he'd either do a fake news thing or push and rally support for further drone strikes which would have killed many civilians alongside the Taliban, but really, we can't know and there isn't really a full way to compare. We won't know how history will judge him. Carter is generally associated with peace even after all the disasters in his which I've seen many comparisons to in the last few days.

It was Trump who started the process, leaving Biden little room for manoeuvre.

Anyone who thinks a withdrawal wouldn't have been messy is deluded. The only solution was to leave troops there forever but there wasn't the appetite for that either.

www.state.gov/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Agreement-For-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf

That is the Doha agreement agreed under Trump. I think that agreement shows that the USA expected the taliban to take control.
What was not expected was for it to happen so fast and Biden has been caught on the back foot as he had no plan organised to get the embassy staff and one entitled to a visa out.