To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

[quote Steakandcheeseplease]@Thatsjustwhatithink Ah you were at Sandhurts now as well

Bloody hell, ex British officer who spent time fighting in Helmand who now continues to work in foreign policy in South Asia - arguing with randoms on Mumsnet.

Aye sure you are [/quote]
If you don't believe theres not much I can do. Army officer, standard tours of Afghanistan followed by leaving and taking up policy roles in that area is pretty standard.

Thats I'm sorry you've been disbelieved on this thread. I don't agree with your stance but I can understand why you feel it's a lost cause. I just think the situation has been so obviously and disastrously worsened by the course of action Biden has taken (and clearly he's not responsible for what led up to it) and I think the US and other Western countries have a responsibility, to try to prevent a humanitarian disaster. Is that an outrageous position?

How do you know the situation would escalate, it didn't when Obama slowed the withdrawal, in fact it got better.

It has been pretty much common knowledge for while, even in America, hence why Obama did his surge that also had a timetable for full withdrawel.

Right so growing opium poppies on farms is not growing poppies.

You could try learning where helmand and Pakistan actually are?

Right so growing opium poppies on farms is not growing poppies.

Yes, just the same as someone growing a couple of weed plants in a cupboard in london is still growing weed.

You are technically correct, but it means nothing in the wider conversation that was happening that you tried to call out.

Technically, poppies are grown in Kabul...

@Aspiringmatriarch

Thats I'm sorry you've been disbelieved on this thread. I don't agree with your stance but I can understand why you feel it's a lost cause. I just think the situation has been so obviously and disastrously worsened by the course of action Biden has taken (and clearly he's not responsible for what led up to it) and I think the US and other Western countries have a responsibility, to try to prevent a humanitarian disaster. Is that an outrageous position?

@Aspiringmatriarch

I don't think it's a outrageous position at all, bit I suppose my thinking would be if not now, when? Obama wanted to pull out, but ended up putting in a surge. Trump set the timelines. Biden said he would, if elected, pull the troops out.

The afghan army hasn't got any better since my time there. I honestly believe it wouldn't have got better next year or the year after.

I also question what westerners could actually do, continue to hold the green zone in Kabul indefinitely? Continue to provide air support? We were always going to leave. This was a shit show and a mess, but the end result is the same: Taliban back in power

People won't like what I've got to say next but...in a post covid world the UK is going to have to make some very serious choices around what our economy can fund. The NHS? Schools? Local councils? Support for the disabled? SEN places? I'd also spend a shit load of money for UK victims of domestic abuse and rape (if I got to choose). So I want us to stop our Blair/bush intervention legacy and support the vulnerable of the UK.

But a lot of people stereotype soldiers and want me to lament the end of conflict that hurt me and my friends? From my point of view it's kinda wierd that people don't get my view.

There is a Royal Marine on Tv now in a live stream from Kabul. He said he is appalled at how the UK and the US solders behaved when the expats tried to get in the airport. He said they were being crushed as the crowds tried to push forward and they wouldn't open the gates for them to enter despite being told they had to let them in and protect them. He was placed on the inside of the gate. His wife was one of the people trying to enter. So she left the gates and tried to go to another secure area and again was turn away by British soliders - who wouldn't come out and get them from the Taliban checkpoint which is in front of the secure checkpoint. He said the the soldiers stood there and watched from the top of the wall

These were people that were told to be there.

He said not only have they let down the Afghani people with the disastrous withdrawal, they can't even get the withdrawal right with the expats.

He highlighted that as per the White House press briefing this morning that they were going to try and get 9000 people along with 2000 British people a day out of the airport. He says you can't get 11000 people through a gate that's the size of a garage door along with thousands of desperate afghans who are also trying to flee.

His ex wife couldn't get to her evacuation flight tonight because they can't get through the Taliban road blockades. No one from her embassy has messaged to see if she is still alive ( she in Norwegian) She is however in a safe location for now.

So it looks like a massive disaster all round.

Thatsjustwhatithink

Truml was directly responsible for people ingesting bleach because of his statements. Get a grip

@Thatsjustwhatithink

Then you will support disbanding the the military? that will free up 40 billion for UK priorities.

Seems there is no special relationship, pointless getting involved in foreign wars as we can only do so with the yanks and they ignore us...... plus as we can see in Afghan, they will drop their allies like a hot coal when it suits them.

Global Britain lol!

So it looks like a massive disaster all round.

Don't think anyone is suggesting it isn't a fuck up, it is people trying to apportion blame and pilling on posters who agree with the withdrawal, it was always US led as they had the majority of the man power.

To add to the shit show that 'Trump made Biden do 1!1"'

Biden hasn't spoken to anyone since the fall of Kabul

twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1427693411197460485

This doesn't look good on anyone, you do have at least the UK and French ambassador staying behind to process applications, the US ambassador getting on the first plane, German coming out with a comment that no one forced the interperators to co-operate and the swedes blocking numbers.

It's a mess all round to be honest.

[quote jasjas1973]@Thatsjustwhatithink

Then you will support disbanding the the military? that will free up 40 billion for UK priorities.

Seems there is no special relationship, pointless getting involved in foreign wars as we can only do so with the yanks and they ignore us...... plus as we can see in Afghan, they will drop their allies like a hot coal when it suits them.

Global Britain lol![/quote]
You can say this about every other country who left.

Should they disband too?

@jasjas1973

The military exists to be the violent arm of British foreign policy. It protects the nation (and is prepared to protect) the nation from many different threats. Of course I wouldn't disband it. But I would not get involved in mission creep counter insurgency conflicts that have had little enduring effect on protecting the UK. I did agree with going into Afghanistan to take out AQ, a clear goal to destroy a terrorist group who had just killed 5000+ in 9/11. I also originally believed in 'nation building' but my time in Afghanistan changed my mind. It's not a nation.

I also massively believe in the UK/US special relationship. And it's the US currently protecting Kabul airfield to get our people out.

I also massively believe in the UK/US special relationship. And it's the US currently protecting Kabul airfield to get our people out

There is no special agreement. Its pretty clear that's finished.

And it's the US currently protecting Kabul airfield to get our people out

Nope, its still in chaos. People can't leave the airport to go back in to town because of the Taliban road blocks (because non expats can't be seen to have tried to have left or they will be killed) and people can't get to the airport because of the Taliban road blocks which are stationed directly outside the airport. These are from live reports from people who are actually there ( last night and this morning)

Steak and cheese is that the man whose also got a pregnant lady with them?

[quote Thatsjustwhatithink]@jasjas1973

The military exists to be the violent arm of British foreign policy. It protects the nation (and is prepared to protect) the nation from many different threats. Of course I wouldn't disband it. But I would not get involved in mission creep counter insurgency conflicts that have had little enduring effect on protecting the UK. I did agree with going into Afghanistan to take out AQ, a clear goal to destroy a terrorist group who had just killed 5000+ in 9/11. I also originally believed in 'nation building' but my time in Afghanistan changed my mind. It's not a nation.

I also massively believe in the UK/US special relationship. And it's the US currently protecting Kabul airfield to get our people out.[/quote]
No, they are protecting the airfield to get their own folk out.

But you are riding two horses here, you moan about the waste of money being spent in Afghan and that it should be spent in the UK.... yet support invasion of lands 1000s of miles from the UK and in an invasion that has not led to the UK being safer at all.

Biden, apparently, completely ignored the UK govt and others on not withdrawing from Afghan so hastily, so the "special relationship" you value is completely one way isn't it?

Even on a daily basis, the US has ignored pleas for Anne Sacoolas to face trial in the UK..... yet we send back whoever they ask for!

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

Steak and cheese is that the man whose also got a pregnant lady with them?

Yes, he was on last night. The pregnant woman is a work colleague of his, he was an active Marine, she is with his wife.

There was a NATO advisor this morning speaking about it too. He said we are entirely reliant on the good will of the Taliban.

@jasjas1973

There was an interview the other night with a injured solider and a Dr of some kind The Dr was in agreement of leaving and reinvesting the money in the U.K. He was educated and used fancy words. The solider bit back with 'You may know fancy words but I know these people and 1000s of their lives are worth more than doing Blackpool up. I have friends that have died there and it was all worth nothing now'

The Dr couldn't come back from that.

I don't understand what the end game of any if this is, though. There's no support in the Eastern hemisphere for the West being in Afghanistan. No country in the Eastern hemisphere is going to step in to help. Theresa May said that the UK should have made an alliance with other govts to stay. But without the US no other govts want to get involved. So unless the UN get off their butts to do something, who is going to police the country? Or are we expecting the US to stay there forever with their soldiers stressed out and dying?
This was always the inevitable end of the conflict, as it was in Vietnam. The Taliban couldn't be defeated so would re-emerge as the Americans left.
However, I don't understand why everyone wasn't evacuated weeks ago so there was just a skeleton staff left to be easily evacuated in a day? Why wasn't that soldiers wife evacuated before instead of waiting til second half of August?

I agree @Westchesterarms - it's the way they've pulled out so quickly that seems to have caused so much chaos & with no thought for those left behind.

Because evacuating everyone beforehand would have zeroed whatever minimal chance there might have been of the Afghan government surviving by making it obvious that the US thought it was going to collapse.

@ Steakandcheeseplease - how would prolonging the war have lessened that tragedy? More soldiers, more civilians would have died and been injured and there’s no reason to think the war would have been any less lost.

Surely though every day civilians would have survived? And those Afghan women and children would have stood a chance at an education and a future? It takes generations to make change - 20 years isn't long enough.

It takes generations to make change - 20 years isn't long enough

And the west has managed to keep lengthy deployments going - no-ones suggesting just walking out of N/S Korea, because we've got to pull out one days are they?

I was listening to Rory Stewart today, who was pointing out that there have been no UK fatalities since about 2014 and similar for US. So the holding pattern for the last 7 years wasn't that dangerous. And just look at the human cost of removing it in this way