To think Joe Biden is an even worse president than Trump?

[Aspiringmatriarch]

I realise Trump was appalling in many ways so this isn't a pro-Trump post really, and I know he was the one who put things in motion for the withdrawal from Afghanistan. But to pull out in such a sudden and shambolic way will without doubt be the direct cause of many deaths and other atrocities in Afghanistan, including the deaths of those who helped the US and other forces. I think it's utterly unforgivable. Can't think of anything Trump did with quite such immediate and devastating consequences. AIBU?

I completely agree with you @Steakandcheeseplease - and of course people are going to be angry. There is a mass violation of women and children’s rights going on as we speak. Mothers and daughters living in absolute terror. How would you feel if your daughter was kidnapped from your home, raped and forced into marriage with a violent thug with no respect for women’s rights? If anyone still believes that withdrawal was the right thing to do then fucking hell, shame on you.

I hope we and the US give every single one of those women and children who’ve been thrown to the wolves a visa to come and live in this country forever.

I don't think the withdrawal was handled well at all, but I think that we would have had the same result whether we left a few days ago or in 5 years. The Taliban were just waiting, and after they were given a timeline for when the west would withdraw...of course this was going to happen. It was inevitable. The more you understand the tribal/ethnic make up of the country the more you realise that Kabul is the only part of Afghanistan that changed...and the afghan army couldn't even try to fight

@Steakandcheeseplease seems really upset that I can't verify my time in the army. Of course I can't. I'm anonymous on a forum exactly because I don't want to link my own personal options to my role now. It's part of being professional at work, I'm obviously allowed my own opinion but I wouldn't link it to my professional life.

My opinions on Afghanistan are what they are precisely because of my tours there. I wouldn't waste any more British life. I've lost close friends and seen what it's done to their families. I've been to enought funerals. If you are prepared for that to continue that shows that we are a product of our experiences, and you don't have mine and I have no idea what your experience of Afghanistan is.

Very little has changed in Afghanistan. The Taliban have been growing in strength since we officially ceased combat operations in 2014. All of the places I was deployed to have gone back to the Taliban. Would I continue to sacrifice my soldiers lives to back up the Afghan army who melt away? No. Not any more. A lot of soldiers and marines feel the same. It's not pointless what we did at the time to protect each other, but I honestly don't know many soldiers and marines who thought the Afghan army would beat the Taliban. So I'm happy we're out. Some soldiers will feel differently, because we aren't all the same.

Lastly, poppies. Honestly, eastern flank of Afghanistan (think nangahar/Helmand) along the borders of Pakistan. Main growing area. Why? Because heroin goes through Pakistan to get to Europe. These provinces have always done this. Kabul is a city. It's not a good place to grow your drugs. You need lots of space and irrigation networks. You also want a porous border..and Pakistan has always been ok with the Taliban.

Ive been there and seen data on cultivation. Around 400 hetares from memory.

Ah so anecodotal evidence that is superior to other anecodtal evidence that you don't believe, as you say it is weird...

@BrozTito

Ive been there and seen data on cultivation. Around 400 hetares from memory.

400 hectares is the equvliant of some one growing a few cannabis plants on their window sill when you think that the total for Afghanistan is 328,000 hectares www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2017/11/21/afghanistans-opium-production-is-through-the-roof-why-washington-shouldnt-overreact/

I always thought that the reason why most poppy was grown in Helmand was because of the hotter climate there. Could be wrong as I am not a poppy farmer.

Ah so anecodotal evidence that is superior to other anecodtal evidence that you don't believe, as you say it is weird...

BrozTito posted a graph from the BBC, so not anecdotal.

Or you could have just read the information i posted. Yeah, a 'soldier' who doesnt know what open conflict is, hasnt seen poppy fiels in kabul and mentions they're a soldier 8 times a post. Right.

@Proudboomer

It's really interesting about the opium. The Russian and Americans improved the Helmand irrigation systems.

I can't be bothered to write my own but from wiki:

The Helmand River flows through the mainly desert region of the province, providing water used for irrigation. The Kajaki Dam, which is one of Afghanistan's major reservoirs, is located in the Kajaki district. Helmand is believed to be one of the world's largest opium-producing regions, responsible for around 42% of the world's total production.[5][6] This is believed to be more than the whole of Burma, which is the second largest producing nation after Afghanistan.

To anyone thinking it be a good idea to grow opium in Kabul. That would be like us deciding to have a major wheat or dairy farm in central London. It's just not what cities do.

Those figures are a bit out of date.
More recent figures here
www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/un-survey-finds-37-spike-afghan-poppy-cultivation

But still 71% of poppy production is from Helmand and increasing

@BrozTito

Or you could have just read the information i posted. Yeah, a 'soldier' who doesnt know what open conflict is, hasnt seen poppy fiels in kabul and mentions they're a soldier 8 times a post. Right.

Just let me understand this right... You wandered around Kabul counting poppy farms? When? And how? And why?

As a British soldier, course I wasn't in kabul. I was in Helmand. Get a grip on your history.

I'm an ex British soldier, we don't use the phrase 'open conflict' unless I fell asleep more than I remember at Sandhurst. It's not lexicon in our doctrine.

The main growing areas are helmand and the south provinces actually, by far. Helmand is also a Western provice with Pakistan to the south. Full of it.

400 hectares is the equvliant of some one growing a few cannabis plants on their window sill when you think that the total for Afghanistan is 328,000 hectares

You ruined it too early...

Obviously fell asleep during your tours as well

@BrozTito

Genuine question. Why does it bother you so much that a former soldier is happy to have withdrawn from Afghanistan? Honestly I am interested. I had a fair few friends in the last few day ask this and they've genuinely understood why I'm glad its over given the loss of life and limbs. What is it that you don't care for or believe in my opinion?

Yeh, like all humans I sleep.

And kabul is a province...

I don’t get why people are having a go at Thats I can’t see any wild claims in posts. It’s another viewpoint. One that is actually closer to the situation than most.

The situation is deeply shocking and awful but it’s still worth looking at what led to it, what is the alternative and what people in US support. Is escalation possible and just more misery for decades and maybe retribution.

I’m not entrenched on one viewpoint - extremism does concern me. Which is why I ask some posters what they think, although posters just slogging jibes back is pointless.

BrozTito posted a graph from the BBC, so not anecdotal.

A graph from the BBC! and a whopping 400 hectares!

I know which person to believe now, it has really proved their point of trying to call someone else out...

A graph from the BBC! and a whopping 400 hectares!

I know which person to believe now, it has really proved their point of trying to call someone else out...

Nasty and goady.

@MarshaBradyo

The point is Steak is that the situation may have changed and escalated had Biden reversed. It wouldn’t have been the reduced troops, but more more in number and more deaths.

People sound fine with what was happening atm but if it changed and escalated - are you ok with that?

And even if you are the US didn’t support staying already so do their views count when it comes to worsening the situation?

How do you know the situation would escalate, it didn't when Obama slowed the withdrawal, in fact it got better.

As i ve told you many times, the casualty rate post 2015 has be very low, i believe the UK has lost 2 soldiers in a 6 year period and that was non combat... not down playing the tragedy for the families but this idea you are sticking too that 100s of allied lives were being lost is simply wrong.

Its a completely fubar, on par with Vietnam withdrawal.

Just read on twitter that over the past few days he's not spoken to a single foreign leader. That is quite extraordinary.

I don't quite put him in the trump category (lunatic) but his conduct yesterday and this week has been very disappointing.

@Thatsjustwhatithink Ah you were at Sandhurts now as well

Bloody hell, ex British officer who spent time fighting in Helmand who now continues to work in foreign policy in South Asia - arguing with randoms on Mumsnet.

Aye sure you are

How do you know the situation would escalate

It’s not something I’ve decided, it was part of Biden’s address.

Some will say he is wrong on here though. Up to them but it’s still a factor worth considering.

It’s also not a partisan issue - both Trump and Biden heading towards withdrawal, with pressure from public. Does this pressure count for anything.

Thatsjustwhatithink is just giving his opinion. I think the clue is in his name.
It is a valid opinion which is shared by many.
Unlike some he has remained polite and asked no one to out themselves to justify their own stance.

@MarshaBradyo

I don’t get why people are having a go at Thats I can’t see any wild claims in posts. It’s another viewpoint. One that is actually closer to the situation than most.

The situation is deeply shocking and awful but it’s still worth looking at what led to it, what is the alternative and what people in US support. Is escalation possible and just more misery for decades and maybe retribution.

I’m not entrenched on one viewpoint - extremism does concern me. Which is why I ask some posters what they think, although posters just slogging jibes back is pointless.

@MarshaBradyo

I'd like to have a sensible debate. Mainly because I continue to work in a similar role professionally and it's interesting to discuss what threats will eminate from Afghanistan in the future. Or if they want to keep control of the country so focus inwards. The Taliban hate Deash (ISIL) affiliates.

And also what actual help looks like for the women of Afghanistan. Lots of westerners saying "how awful, we should do something' on social media doesn't usually help. They feel better for it, but it has sod all effect. I'd be interested in what people think would genuinely help that isn't a constant unwanted western military presence. Especially outside of Kabul.

Just read on twitter that over the past few days he's not spoken to a single foreign leader. That is quite extraordinary.

That's very weird.