Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

The U.K. government suggested British nationals leave a few weeks ago by commercial airlines (Qatar is still flying in) it is not a surprise alas. The photos are reminiscent of the fall of Saigon, so sad, especially for women and girls. Non essential embassy staff have already been evacuated, it's how many afghans who have collaborated with western countries that can be extracted is in question, using planes to the nearest friendly nation is still a long way

I’m really glad to see a thread on this horrific situation.

My heart breaks for the number of British soldiers who lost their lives for absolutely nothing. If that was my loved one I’d be devastated.

As for the women and girls in Afghanistan, it doesn’t bear thinking about.

I’m appalled we’ve walked away, not surprised at Biden, he’s no supporter of women and girls but can’t believe the easy ride he gets just because he’s not Trump.

I keep thinking about the many times Wootton Bassett came to a standstill as yet another dead soldier was brought home. What a terrible waste, it’s been for nothing.

I'm not surprised that there wasn't much resistance to the Taliban tbqh. It's no good looking at it from a Western perspective.

Afghanistan is essentially made up of a lot of different tribes that Westerners decided were to be one country. Even the geography of the place isn't conducive to central government. To a lot of Afghan people - especially in the mountainous areas - Afghanistan as a concept doesn't matter. What matters is the local village and tribe, not what someone down in Kabul (or in London or Washington) thinks they should believe about a unified Afghanistan. Whereas the Taliban will die and kill for their ideology, a lot of Afghani people just want to be left alone. And I can't say I blame them. They've been dealing with fighting for what, twenty years now?

It's also worth remembering that the Afghan government was not liked by the people, corruption, bribery etc were rife. By contrast, the Taliban is a highly efficient paramilitary group (made up of Pashtuns I believe, a big advantage as that's one of the biggest tribes). As long as the average Afghani follows their laws and pays them set tax, the Taliban will leave them alone. Unlike the Afghan government officials, who would take everything the family has and then demand more. And the average Afghani gets a more peaceful life and hopefully the fighting stops.

Of course I don't support the Taliban and I think outcomes will not be great for women. Of course. But I can understand why the people aren't rising up against them, like a lot of us Westerners seem to expect them to do.

can’t understand why the Afghan army didn’t put up a fight. They were armed and vastly outnumbered the taliban yet it appears did nothing to defend themselves.

I read that the place is very tribal. Afghan soldiers were posted away from where their families were so they were essentially expected to defend a place that they felt was not really their problem to defend.

There has been fighting for hundreds of years over there my Pakistani relatives said when we went in it was a waste of effort on our part she wouldn't be happy to be right but there it is sadly (she has since died)

I had hoped we had finally calmed it and could leave

Yes a complete waste of time. Both Afghanistan and Iraq. Achieved absolutely nothing and millions died. But somehow I think that the people who wanted to achieve something out of it did very well. The defense contractors etc. That’s what it was all about from the start.

I mean the existing power structures in Afghanistan essentially boiled down to a choice between people who throw gay people off roofs and won't let kids fly kites, or dudes who extort the populace and engage in bacha bazi.

It really is another world. I read an article the other day that 92% of Afghani people hadn't heard of 9/11 and they hate the American occupiers (can't say I blame them, if someone is blowing up your kids you're not going to be all that receptive to the Western values they're preaching at you).

Yes a complete waste of time. Both Afghanistan and Iraq. Achieved absolutely nothing and millions died. But somehow I think that the people who wanted to achieve something out of it did very well. The defense contractors etc. That’s what it was all about from the start.

100%. There's big money to be made in war especially for America, who have not only been at war for 226 out of their 244 years of existence, but spend more on their military than the next 12 biggest spenders combined.

There's absolutely no doubt that as soon as the right people have their contracrs in place America will re-engage in Afghanistan, or find another country who need a good dose of "freedom".

@Comedycook

I was not a fan of Trump but can you imagine the criticism he'd be getting if he was in power now rather than Biden?!

This! Trump might of being sexist and racist but if this isn’t the most evil betrayal of the Afghan people then I don’t know what it, shame on Biden.

More in terms of modern colonialist debt diplomacy that they've been doing.
Is Afghanistan part of their belt and road plans? Since it connects to Pakistan.

I thought the issue with the Afghan army is not so much that they "rolled" over, but that the idea that Afghanistan is a nation-state like the US or the UK or whatever is misleading. It is a tribal society that has fissures along tribal and warchief lines. Therefore if you have a "national" military but you ask soldiers from one tribe to defend citizens of another tribe, they just aren't interested. Their society is culturally far more fractured than we are used to in what are largely culturally monolithic societies in the West (I cannot for instance imagine scenarios where someone from Marseille refuses to defend Parisian citizenry, even if the cultures are very varied).

The Afghan army are a fucking joke.

So it's alright for other countries men to die putting up a fight.
Women should be taking up arms too they've got a finger with which to pull a trigger.

Our army isn't there to babysit another country for the rest of it's existence, I'm glad we're out.

I’m so upset and so angry that this is happening. All those girls and women whose lives are going to ruined in a instance, faces covered, education stopped, rights stripped away.

The policies of the US and U.K. lead to this. I can’t blame the soldiers of the Afghan army who know they will be executed by the Taliban if they are caught. Who have no food and no support.

I can’t barely watch the news coverage because I just want to cry and feel so helpless.

@Hiddenmnetter I know what you're saying, but what about British soldiers deployed to Afghanistan then? They were holding back the Taliban, not defending their own 'tribe' (Britain), yet they saved locals from Taliban.

The Afghan army did next to nothing, they were paid and trained and weaponised, on the whole the clearly preferred the Taliban. Makes sense too, as the Taliban make plenty of money from heroin, these are mostly young men who won't suffer under them and may prosper. The women will suffer though...

It’s extremely sad, but it’s inevitable for all the reasons set out from previous posters.

Nothing we can do about it. If the soldiers won’t fight, then the Taliban is free to do what they please.

Very, very sad and difficult for us to comprehend why Afghanis are willing to roll over and take it without a fight. It’s a set of cultures we just don’t understand.

It’s clear the army and probably a majority of the population don’t want the West to fight for them. Totally different situation to Iran, where a lot of people did want support to overthrow the regime (because there are many well educated relative liberals in Iran, whereas Afghanistan is the opposite).

Awful situation for the Women there. And the many Afghans who worked with the US/UK forces such as translators/local guides who were so vital but then abandoned. What will their fate be now?

What a complete mess. Who funds the Taliban? I agree it has to be the will of the nation itself to make a change. History has shown this but no lessons learnt.

@LonstantonSpiceMuseum

It's only going to get worse. Wonder how long before China steps in, too?

I've reached the conclusion that this isn't ineptitude or even dementia from Biden, that it's true Real Politik in play right now, that we've done this on purpose to 1. recall troops to be available for deployment elsewhere; 2. destabilise the region intentionally, in order to; 3. distract and occupy China with this fucking mess - it's on their literal doorstep, so they have no choice or it will spill over their border.

I'm also absolutely horrified for the people of Afghanistan, it's going to be particularly appalling, especially for the women and older girl children. If you look between the Taliban and the Chinese occupation of Xinjiang Province, there are no good options left to them.

I feel sad about it, all those service men dying for nothing, all the innocent Afghanis dying for nothing but what can we do?

Damned if we do, damned if we don’t. The world hates us for being involved in other countries and hate us for not being involved, I don’t know what we can do.

The Taliban will take over if we were to leave in another year or another 10 years do the only option is to stay forever and put our servicemen at risk, why is that an option?

The problem is that the Taliban army are bigger than the Afghan army - how is this possible? and it’s not as black and white as it seems, the Afghan government aren’t all good trying to fight the Taliban, there’s a lot of corruption muddying the waters.

I feel like the whole world needs to get together and try and sort this perhaps instead of leaving it to U.K. and US.

Those poor, poor people in Afghanistan get screwed over again and again. It’s a fucking disgrace.

[quote Idontknowwhat2]@Hiddenmnetter I know what you're saying, but what about British soldiers deployed to Afghanistan then? They were holding back the Taliban, not defending their own 'tribe' (Britain), yet they saved locals from Taliban.

The Afghan army did next to nothing, they were paid and trained and weaponised, on the whole the clearly preferred the Taliban. Makes sense too, as the Taliban make plenty of money from heroin, these are mostly young men who won't suffer under them and may prosper. The women will suffer though...[/quote]
Yes this The Afghan army did next to nothing, they were paid and trained and weaponised, on the whole the clearly preferred the Taliban.

Western countries should keep their heads out of trying to impose their "democracy" upon tribal societies. No good ever comes of it. These countries need to sort out their own society. Look what happened in Iraq! We should have kept out and left Sadaam where he was.

Not rtft. Blair and Bush took us in. Biden (started by Trump) have pulled us out. We didn't want to leave. Whilst there we educated nearly 4m Afghan children (including girls).

We are now trying to sort visas for thousands of people who helped us. Private security, interpreters etc.

I also weep when I think of the fate of the women and girls. We cannot re-enter unilaterally. Only Turkey want to assist at this stage. America, France, Germany, etc have turned their back on these people. Shameful.

It's honestly terrifying. My heart goes out to all those poor women and girls. I wish there was something we could do, but realistically there isn't much we can do about it anymore.

I agree with some other posters. Biden made a horrible mistake here. I've always been anti-Trump, but what Biden is doing now isn't any better.

@Idontknowwhat2 that's basically my point- our militaries have one major advantage in that they owe their loyalty and obedience to a central government. That's actually a really important thing. Trying to invest in and train up a 'national' force that is not really national at all is why the Afghan army has been so garbage. Not cause they're not well armed, or don't have weapons, or even that they're Taliban supporters, just that they're not from the area they're being asked to defend.

The NATO continent in the latter days of the war was much smaller than the Taliban forces and held them at bay with comparitive ease- because they were overwhelmingly armed and prepared to die in the defence of the citizens they had been assigned to protect (in this instance Afghani and by extension their own national citizenry).