Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

Ending involvement in Afghanistan has been a US foreign policy aim since the Obama presidency (he wanted then out before the end of his presidency, but did not achieve that)

It's a popular idea for both sides of US politics

Trump announced the timelines for this autumn - at a time when it looked OK (or at least OK-ish) to take a big step then, especially as if Biden won the expectation was that the policy wouid be reviewed (rather as Obama had a major review)

Instead it was confirmed, and here we are

It's not just about ending involvement though, it's about withdrawing in a way that ensures long term stability in the country.

The US has a responsibility to not leave a bigger mess behind them than they found. Only time will tell if that happens.

Appalling.
The waste of lives of UK and American military.
The waste of life of Afghan military and civilians.
The hope of an education and career given to girls which will now be taken away.
The waste of money attempting to build a fair society.

Wondering how the taliban have managed this - they have ridden rough shod across the country, taking many cities/towns - how are they controlling these places when they move on to the next? Is it totally by fear, so they leave a handful of armed men in a town with the promise of extreme violence against anyone who steps out of line?

The way they have managed this will build up a myth around them - even though they're a rag tag bunch of individuals the perception now will be of an 'elite' fighting force who are unstoppable, powerful and any resistance will just give up.

The UK and USA need to get the interpreters, their families and any others in danger because of their associations out of Afghanistan immediately.

It is so heartbreaking, thinking of what the women and girls are going through right now. And our governments are entirely culpable.

@Comedycook

I was not a fan of Trump but can you imagine the criticism he'd be getting if he was in power now rather than Biden?!

Trump negotiated most of this and lots of us soldiers had already been withdrawn under that negotiation. Biden is completing what Trump started.

Unfortunately there isn't really a solution, not a palatable one anyway. The last 20 years haven't been a waste overall, they gave hope, provided training, infrastructure, equipment, education- but I suppose the question is at what point do you resign yourself in intervention of foreign troops to 'keep the place' at a huge financial commitment, and at what point do you say we have provided what we can to equip the army, but it's still not working and realistically nothing we do is going to fundamentally change a country that has been this way for centuries. What would a slower withdrawal have really achieved?

@GammyLeg

It is so heartbreaking, thinking of what the women and girls are going through right now. And our governments are entirely culpable.

Are they?

BBC reports Taliban fighters of around 60,000. Afghan army, trained over the last 20 years and with Western weaponry numbered 300,000. The reports I've read say most of the national army just rolled over and didn't bother fighting.

I think there's plenty to show that a lot of Afghans support the Taliban, which is horrendous for the women and children.

@Idontknowwhat2

BBC reports Taliban fighters of around 60,000. Afghan army, trained over the last 20 years and with Western weaponry numbered 300,000. The reports I've read say most of the national army just rolled over and didn't bother fighting.

I think there's plenty to show that a lot of Afghans support the Taliban, which is horrendous for the women and children.

I know this doesn't help women and girls there, but yes. Why should we keep risking the lives of our soldiers when they aren't prepared to fight for themselves?

@Comedycook

I was not a fan of Trump but can you imagine the criticism he'd be getting if he was in power now rather than Biden?!

I was happy when Trump was out but I have been thinking about this too.

Is this a huge error by Biden, he got it wrong?

I feel really sad about it all it’s terrible

Utter waste of lives.

Devastating

It's a shame we couldn't have taught and trained the women to protect themselves given noone else wants to protect them.

@Stealbee exactly, there's barely been any fighting. The Afghan soldiers were happy to be paid using mostly US money and then just switched sides to the Taliban. The Taliban now have all the weaponry the West gave for the nationals to defend themselves. You can't force a country to move on from the dark ages when the majority seem to want the Taliban to succeed.

I'm terrifies for the women and children.

I think there is indeed some popular support. I even think that if tomorrow there emerges an incel party in the West, officially campaigning for women's rights to be curtailed, it would gain surprising levels of support amongst seemingly "normal" men, not monsters.

Apparently the embassies in Afghanistan are all fleeing.

Except the Russians.

Apparently Parliament is being recalled this week in order to discuss the situation and how we should respond

Wasn’t it Trump that made it a big thing about America pulling out and not wanting to be the world police? That countries should sort themselves out?

Unfortunately the West cannot win in this situation. They would only be delaying the inevitable. The Taliban will always be in that region waiting on the sidelines. Foreign troops can’t stay their forever.

Would you be willing for your sons and daughters to die fighting in this shit show ? I tend to find people saying we should stay there don’t have and real skin in the game.

It is such a sad situation - hopeless.

@Sirzy

Apparently Parliament is being recalled this week in order to discuss the situation and how we should respond

Cobra met either yesterday or Friday and I think committed resource to helping British citizens get home- but that other than that there isn't much more we can do. I expect they will meet numerous times in the coming weeks, but I'd be surprised if it swayed much from that.

Apparently the embassies in Afghanistan are all fleeing.

Except the Russians.

Ironic if true, considering the US helped create/fund the Taliban to specifically fight off the Russians.

I can’t understand why the Afghan army didn’t put up a fight. They were armed and vastly outnumbered the taliban yet it appears did nothing to defend themselves.

It’s a dreadful situation - it’s clearly too late to do anything about it now.

Most embassies had already gone down to essential staff only, and it does look as if final evacuation is now in the offing.

One angle is that you cannot have an embassy to a country where you do not recognise the government. When the taliban was last in charge (1996-2001) the only countries that recognised it as the government Pakistan, Turkmenistan, Saudi Arabia, and UAE.

You can leave behind some sort of representative or trade office, but it won't be a full Embassy and there will be no Ambassador (The Telegraph is reporting that the British Ambassador is to leave imminently). But that might not happen for a while - at least until it is clear whether it is safe for any foreigners to return, and it's a role too dangerous for locals

And talks with a Taliban government will have to be on back channels

[quote Idontknowwhat2]@Stealbee exactly, there's barely been any fighting. The Afghan soldiers were happy to be paid using mostly US money and then just switched sides to the Taliban. The Taliban now have all the weaponry the West gave for the nationals to defend themselves. You can't force a country to move on from the dark ages when the majority seem to want the Taliban to succeed.

I'm terrifies for the women and children.[/quote]
This is difficult then, I didn’t know about the switching

Wondering how the taliban have managed this - they have ridden rough shod across the country, taking many cities/towns - how are they controlling these places when they move on to the next? Is it totally by fear, so they leave a handful of armed men in a town with the promise of extreme violence against anyone who steps out of line? The way they have managed this will build up a myth around them - even though they're a rag tag bunch of individuals the perception now will be of an 'elite' fighting force who are unstoppable, powerful and any resistance will just give up.

cf. Vietnam and the idea (perpetuated for many years) that the Vietminh/Vietcong/NVA were a rag tag bunch when In fact they were organized ruthless groups who were happy to play the long game and take whatever losses were needed in order to “win”…

And here we are again.

As others posted upthread said it’s been US policy across several administrations to withdraw from Afghanistan, though the short term execution is down to President Biden..

And I’m afraid .”something must be done” short term boils down to boots on the ground….the armed forces/military recruiting offices will no doubt be open tomorrow….I’m sure they will be overwhelmed in the morning as posters here and perhaps also their daughters and sons rush to sign up.