Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@Proudboomer

I do think the withdrawal has been a complete cock up and as much as it pains me to admit Trumps withdrawal plan would have been better

There’s been a bit of revisionism going on/signs of the some of the recent Trump camp utterances benefitting from the wisdom of hind sight ….it’s perhaps worth looking back to what people were saying at the back end of Trump’s term of office.

“ Nov. 16, 2020 — Congressional Republicans, responding to news reports that the Trump administration will rapidly reduce forces in Afghanistan, warn of what Sen. Marco Rubio calls “a Saigon-type of situation” in Afghanistan. “A rapid withdrawal of U.S. forces from Afghanistan now would hurt our allies and delight the people who wish us harm,”Senate Majority Leader Mitch Leader Mitch McConnell says.”

www.factcheck.org/2021/08/timeline-of-u-s-withdrawal-from-afghanistan/

I’m not for one minute claiming the current administration in the White House hasn’t screwed this up badly but I think it’s hard to see how the Trump plan as advertised when he was in office wouldn’t have run into similar difficulties….

@jasjas1973

I now see that it was more likely 50000 of which 90% were illiterate hash users

What an unsubstantiated slur on these soldiers as well as the British troops who trained many of them.

Just one of many

@Proudboomer

Good to know you support our boys out there.... not.

oh and improve your math, 1 isn't 90% of 50,000.

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

Oh no.. Id say the tag, credible is on Biden. It wasn't Boris who wasn't contactable

You ve made some good points on this thread ...but i fail to see how Biden talking to a man he doesn't like, respects or thinks is worthy to be PM of the UK, 6 days ago, would have made the slightest difference to the unfolding situation.

The time for Johnson calling Biden was months ago.

Now even the Pentagon is asking for commercial airlines to get people out.

Meanwhile in the middle of this mess some good news..

twitter.com/AirMobilityCmd/status/1429221286341980163?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Now even the Pentagon is asking for commercial airlines to get people out.

From what I’ve heard they’ve called up the Civil Air Reserve Fleet, or at least part thereof.

I suspect it’s probably for them to operate into the Gulf airfields to move refugees onwards from places like Qatar to the likes of Ramstein (Germany) and elsewhere to free up space for more escaping Afghanistan, and I guess ultimately to assist with moving troops and equipment back to the States once this is over

It would probably be a waste of limited military transport assets to have them tied up flying the long sectors from the Gulf up into Europe or the States when their skills and kit would be better used getting into/out of Kabul…

I’ll probably be proved wrong but unless there had been one heck of a deal struck with the Taliban I suspect the US flights into/out Kabul itself will continue to be operated pretty much exclusively by the military.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Reserve_Air_Fleet

The EU is opening channels of communication with the Taliban in order to get Afghanis who have helped Europeans out.

I read today that the chaos is so abysmal that the Spanish Defence Minister gave to the Spanish troops at the airport to ask Afghanis to keep shouting Spain or wear something red to be recognised. Shambolic doesn't even come close.

On the other front, Josep Borrell, the High Representative of the EU for Foreign Affairs and Security, is openly asking for an European Force.

Textually...."I hope that this situation helps to make the concept of strategic autonomy well understood, what it is, what it is for. Now we would like to have the capacity to act on our own, to have a military force capable of mobilizing as the Americans mobilize theirs which raises the 'strategic compass', a 'first entry force', a force to act as an emergency. Not only for training missions, but also for more complicated things, as in this scenario ",

In addition, the head of European diplomacy asks that the message sent by the American Administration be well understood: " What Biden has said is that the US no longer wants to wage the wars of others " "The EU has acted as a 'Kantian' power, using the instruments of peace, the rule of law, trade. And in terms of political philosophy the Americans were 'Hobbesians': what matters is who is in charge, the power. And this begins to change, because what Biden says, making Trump's agreement with the Taliban effective, is that they no longer want to wage other people's wars, and we cannot blame them because we have been saying the same thing, But this new scenario undoubtedly poses problems. leadership at world level and I think it is an occasion to reinforce the concept and the active policy of European strategic autonomy "

Personally I think we are going to see huge changes in world defense in the next 10 years. With Brexit, the influence of the UK on behalf of America inside the EU has disappeared and so their opposition to an European Defence power. What's happening in Afghanistan is going to have important consequences. The death of Nato to start with.

Fuck a euro force-as usual it will only be france and britain who take it seriously. The uk already provides ireland with air defence no charge

Cant take NATO seriously while turkey is in it

@BrozTito

Fuck a euro force-as usual it will only be france and britain who take it seriously. The uk already provides ireland with air defence no charge

Whatever you say dear

Are you claiming the irish air defence agreement doesnt exist? Ireland has an air corp with no jets. Thats how seriously europe takes defending themselves

The death of Nato to start with.

I saw NATO as very much as a product of the Cold War, so has lost its strategic purpose. I assume that the E European Warsaw pact states were encouraged to join, to pull them away from the orbit of Russia.

You do have to wonder what the UK's role will be in ten years time. Will we still be firmly in the American camp and deluding ourselves about the Special Relationship (which died at the time of Suez)?

@Peregrina

The death of Nato to start with.

I saw NATO as very much as a product of the Cold War, so has lost its strategic purpose. I assume that the E European Warsaw pact states were encouraged to join, to pull them away from the orbit of Russia.

You do have to wonder what the UK's role will be in ten years time. Will we still be firmly in the American camp and deluding ourselves about the Special Relationship (which died at the time of Suez)?

I fully agree with you that NATO was a product of the Cold War and have no purpose in the actual geopolitical time.

I don't know what the UK will be doing, but leaving EU is going to have strategic changes in European defence as it does in trade and people's movement. The UK was perceived by many in the EU as the the American trojan horse, they were completely opposed and got their way in stopping the development of an European Force. That has changed.

One stupid thing with leaving the EU is that had we stayed in, it would be the UK and France jockeying to take the lead. Now the field is clear for France. We find that there is unlikely to be a role for the UK with the Americans. They only want us when we support their wars and if they pull back that leaves the UK without a role there either. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, of course.

Another force to pour billions into so they can stand around helping commit genocide like in bosnia

Broztinto is correct - Ireland has no Air Defence capability, it is/would be provided by the UK under terms of an existing agreement.

FWIW even post Brexit the UK provides some heavy airlift/helicopter support for the French forces involved in counter insurgency operations in the west African Sahel region.

@notimagain

Broztinto is correct - Ireland has no Air Defence capability, it is/would be provided by the UK under terms of an existing agreement.

FWIW even post Brexit the UK provides some heavy airlift/helicopter support for the French forces involved in counter insurgency operations in the west African Sahel region.

Many countries in Europe have no defence capability at all to go on their own. Ireland is an EU country, if they are signatory to an European Defence Force it will take precedence to an existing UK agreement.

We are talking about creating a pan European defence force. It's never been done before but then we didn't expect Brexit to happen, it did and Ireland is fully behind the EU and the EU has been fully behind Ireland.

I think whatever conceptions of defence we have now are going to disappear very, very soon.

Ireland is an EU country, if they are signatory to an European Defence Force it will take precedence to an existing UK agreement.

..or looking at the practicalities despite signing up to an EU Defence Force it might be decided to leave things like the UK-Irish air Defence arrangement and similar agreements in place….who knows? For example France managed to appear both in and out of the overall NATO structure for many years but they worked with/alongside UK and other NATO Forces on many occasions.

Whatever happens if the intent is to somehow reduce US influence then the Europeans and Britain will have to up their defence spending, so it will be interesting to see how popular that will be with the voters once Afghanistan gets forgotten.

The EU is opening channels of communication with the Taliban in order to get Afghanis who have helped Europeans out.

So have we, if we go beyond 31st August it will be a different story though.

@Alondra I read today that the chaos is so abysmal that the Spanish Defence Minister gave to the Spanish troops at the airport to ask Afghanis to keep shouting Spain or wear something red to be recognised. Shambolic doesn't even come close. News reports in the last 24 hours show people holding up what appears to be flags, or painting them on t-shirts/something, and trying to get noticed that way.

I've just checked twitter, and John Muse (Mues for Monatana) has this: If you know of someone who is stranded in Afghanistan (American Citizen, Green Card Holder, Afghan Interpreter, or Families) and they have not been helped, DM me. We are in direct comms with those in Afghanistan conducting evac ops.

I've no time to check that, so please, if you need to verify, do so. I just hope it helps someone.

twitter.com/MuesforMontana/status/1429515148272623619

This is a brilliant conversation about the situation in Afghanistan. It covers historical political failures since allied forces went in and brings us up to date. I found it quite thought provoking.

The Taliban won't extend the deadline. They do not believe they are answerable to anyone.

I see FlightRadar 24 is a flurry of activity out of Afghanistan and - if I am right - it appears shorter transit flights are now being made to allow quicker aircraft turnaround times.

@FOJN
Political failures go back centuries.

www.reuters.com/world/china-pakistan-india-jockey-position-afghanistans-new-great-game-2021-08-23/

Interesting article here.