Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Taliban enter Kabul

999 replies

tttigress · 15/08/2021 10:01

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

OP posts:
PickUpAPepper · 21/08/2021 23:38

Anyway, Biden has utter contempt for Johnson, he sees him as a trump like clown.
It wasn’t just Johnson he was ignoring. I’ve found a repeated claim that Trudeau of Canada, desperate for information and discussion, managed to get hold of Hillary Clinton first. Germany and France have both complained loudly (This was a NATO operation, not just US/ U.K. - Europeans are out there trying to evacuate their staff too). In a military operation quickly going shit, communications matter and that delay was bloody weird.

Polkabott, you’re quite right of course, NATO is an alliance not a single army, and the EU would match that pattern.

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 21/08/2021 23:39

I agree I don't think it would be helpful to sack him now when he's in the loop it would slow things down.

But what does it tell us about how seriously some people take their jobs and responsibilities.
Could he, did he start work whilst on the holiday?
The optics and risk of taking two more weeks days holiday when we are in a situation where every second matters... Every moment for people to get inside that airport counted.

Also the attitude after perhaps gives us a window on the attitudes before. We have let all our einimes know when to attack us! In August!

They didn't even do this in their non fighting time?!

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 21/08/2021 23:42

I don't think if Biden does think of Boris like a trump clown, that's any excuse to leave us, their partners with boots on the ground, in the lurch..

I mean.. Biden is now at the mercy of the taliban and is working with them, but he couidnt communicate with Boris?
Is this how twisted things have become? No I don't buy it.

Something in the US has gone very wrong.

PickUpAPepper · 21/08/2021 23:44

And as much as I am not sure what has happened the treatment of women and children is down to the Taliban , and not western governments . Why are so many of those trying to escape the men ? Why are they not defending their women ? Genuine question ? I don’t understand

Are you asking why some men believe women should be subjugated, or why some enjoy power and cruelty? Some of it will just be fear of the Taliban and reprisals, men can be afraid too and are almost as helpless against groups of other men. Pop over to the feminist board for rather better analysis than I can give. If you’ve not met men who think they are superior and who actively enjoy causing fear and distress then you’ve been lucky though. Sad

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 21/08/2021 23:49

Unsure it's a deeply male run patriarchal society

Many stories I've read the women are afraid of what "uncles" will force them to do with the backing of the taliban.

There are many many layers of the suppression of women in sharia law countries.

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 21/08/2021 23:49

Pick you, the society they live in tells them men are superior.

BrozTito · 22/08/2021 00:08

I think on this Biden is a Corbyn type-ie. Thinks if westerners arnt there to see it its not a war.

FOJN · 22/08/2021 00:21

At least someone in the UK parliament is stepping up to do their job; Keir Starmer calling Johnson and Raab to account.

jasjas1973 · 22/08/2021 07:28

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

I don't think if Biden does think of Boris like a trump clown, that's any excuse to leave us, their partners with boots on the ground, in the lurch..

I mean.. Biden is now at the mercy of the taliban and is working with them, but he couidnt communicate with Boris?
Is this how twisted things have become? No I don't buy it.

Something in the US has gone very wrong.

I think it might be better to look at what Johnson was doing from Feb (this is when Sky news are saying the decisions were made)

Flat renovations, a new baby and the G7 .... yet nothing on Afghanistan.
Calls to bring back more Afghan nationals who had helped the UK were falling on deaf ears.

But even if it was April, why did BJ wait until 6 days ago to contact Biden, by which time it was far too late.

Remember the racial slur BJ made about Obama? his links to Bannon and Trump?

Biden has totally fucked up Afghanistan (and we are up to our necks in this too) but to suggest BJ had any influence is wrong, indeed BJ said at the G7 "i will not disagree with President Biden on anything"

Yep sums it up.

Peregrina · 22/08/2021 08:05

How much attention should we pay to what Tony Blair thinks? Foreign policy is the area where his Government spectacularly failed with Iraq and the non-existent WMD. I found I could only read half of it.

Although one point did strike me - the Americans still have bases around the world, including the UK, so it's not having troops overseas that the Americans mind, just not getting them killed. In which case, a more astute politician than Trump would have stressed a peace keeping role for the troupes in Afghanistan. Biden could have paused Trump's agreement to pursue this.

Peregrina · 22/08/2021 08:13

sorry troupes = troops - odd autocorrect there.

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 22/08/2021 08:40

Jas I'm looking at the bigger picture in my comments as the USA old position as holding the line in the free democratic west.
In Afghanistan we are a player but a small player as you said we fell in line behind Biden.

Whilst I'm sure the taliban and all radical extremists are watching UK and eu response they know its the USA who is the one to watch and fear.

So it's definitely back to Biden for this, cutting off his own allies and I think showing extraordinary arrogance, mind blowing arrogance.

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 22/08/2021 08:43

I can't read a word of what Tony Blair wants to say.

It's crystal clear that Biden wants to pull out. Can't blame trump.

But what's the red line now? With isis security threats at the airport?

billysboy · 22/08/2021 08:48

we should not have gone over there and got involved to start with

OP I think you are correct a total waste of time and resources

we should now accept our responsibilities with good grace , I cannot help think that all of the people fleeing are the ones that the country needs to get itself sorted out

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 22/08/2021 09:06

Billy, how can any country sort it self out with being able to choose its own government?

FOJN · 22/08/2021 09:28

I posted the links to Blair's opinions without adding my own thoughts on the man. I'm not surprised people have disregarded or refused to read because its Blair (I'm still waiting for objections to a Mirror link) but I think this is a mistake and one of the reasons we are politically polarised, it feels like many people believe there is moral virtue in their political affiliation and refuse to consider alternative views. I don't think this is healthy for democracy.

FWIW I don't think I can forgive Blair for Iraq, he shares top spot with David Cameron for awful PM's in my life time. I have an aversion to slick, career politicians of all stripes.

Peregrina · 22/08/2021 09:44

I didn't give up reading because of an aversion to Blair's political views - it was his self-serving tone which got me. Domestically, I think he did a lot of good, but his Foreign policy was a disaster and to my mind that called into question the validity of his opinions on the question of Middle East/Asian politics.

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 22/08/2021 09:48

Tony Blair was horrendous for the UK as well as over seas he disgusts me.

CatLover1978 · 22/08/2021 12:16

What a twit! The last 20 years in Afghanistan have all been for nothing? As a military wife, my husband did 3 tours in Mazar-i-Sharif in Afghanistan, and he said that the war was good and that we should do anything we can to prevent terrorism. I bet you guys have never even been in the military or know someone who has, MMTI Hmm

MistySkiesAfterRain · 22/08/2021 13:07

I think there is a fine but important difference between "it feels like it has all been for nothing" and "it has been for nothing". It is true that thousands of women and children were educated, life expectancy improved, child mortality decreased, massive infrastructure was built, as has been pointed out we prevented terrorism. These are real and lasting changes. What we don't know is how much will be undone. I personally can't be without hope, even if that hope is very small.

Proudboomer · 22/08/2021 13:31

Well I must admit that I was wrong and there wasn’t 300000 Afghan troops but it my defence it was Biden who told us there was .
I now see that it was more likely 50000 of which 90% were illiterate hash users.
It doesn’t change my mind that we should not be in Afghanistan.
It doesn’t change the fact that we have invested over $800 billion over the past 2 years and yet all we have done is support a corrupt puppet government.
I do think the withdrawal has been a complete cock up and as much as it pains me to admit Trumps withdrawal plan would have been better.
A conditional withdrawal of civilians then afgan nationals with visas, then the equipment and weapons and then the army and bomb the bases on the way out.

jasjas1973 · 22/08/2021 14:25

@Wheretoeattweenandteen

Jas I'm looking at the bigger picture in my comments as the USA old position as holding the line in the free democratic west. In Afghanistan we are a player but a small player as you said we fell in line behind Biden.

Whilst I'm sure the taliban and all radical extremists are watching UK and eu response they know its the USA who is the one to watch and fear.

So it's definitely back to Biden for this, cutting off his own allies and I think showing extraordinary arrogance, mind blowing arrogance.

The point is that a more credible UK PM would a: have more sway in Washington and b: have called out Bidens afghan withdrawal policy far earlier.

Its easy to blame the americans but we knew this was their stated policy months ago and did nothing until last Monday!

there was zero mention of Afghanistan when the UK was hosting the G7 summit, it was swimming and beach walks in soft focus.

I just don't know how the 'west will get its citizens out and then safely
evacuate the troops.

I think we will have to go back in.

jasjas1973 · 22/08/2021 14:27

I now see that it was more likely 50000 of which 90% were illiterate hash users

What an unsubstantiated slur on these soldiers as well as the British troops who trained many of them.

Wheretoeattweenandteen · 22/08/2021 14:29

Oh no.. Id say the tag, credible is on Biden. It wasn't Boris who wasn't contactable