How do Scottish parents feel about what 4 year olds are being taught

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Name changed for this.

So the Scottish govt decided that 4 year olds should be taught about gender dysphoria. Does a 4 year old really need to think about this or be taught about it. Is there anyone you know, looking back wishes that they had been taught this at 4? Who really thinks this is a good idea. Has every other generation been disadvantaged by not having this relentlessly pushed upon them as children. Just cannot get my head around it, and cannot imagine any Scottish parents being ok with this. But they clearly are or otherwise it wouldn’t be happening.

The key issue is that guidance is advising teachers that significant information relating to a child’s welfare may be withheld from a young child’s legal guardian without any proper process.

That’s been part of the guidance since the original guidance, which was deemed to be unlawful (yet still remained live for 4 years). This guidance has been amended to better reflect the law, the original was a horror show but the ability to socially transition without parental knowledge has been in place for several years now. I’m just glad that folk are finally becoming aware of what’s happening in schools.

Exactly. It's all sexist tripe.

The child I taught with asd who started to think he was trans (after being told that was "his problem" by older siblings who watched a documentary on trans; "I have a woman trapped in my head") simply liked long hair and dresses, but society said no.

Then the damage was done. The Tavistock recognised he had no issue with his body or name luckily.

I remember he refused to play football on pe lesson till I showed him the women's team and a men's team who wear pink. Then he did so happily and aced it.

Teaching about "gender dysphoria" is to some extent like teaching about anorexia or bulimia.

There may be a very small number of children who might suffer spontaneously.

There is a much larger number of children who will pick up the idea because of the teaching, and some of those will try to use it as a solution/coping mechanism.

This is already happening without the "help" of schools, from online influence - hence the 4000% increase in girls going to gender clinics over the last 10 years.

But even beyond that, the entire philosophical basis ends up creating a complete mess - teaching kids that "femininity = woman" and "masculinity = man". (Activists will deny this to the cows come home, but how else can you pitch this at 5-year-old level? It's either anatomy or stereotypes. You can't teach them Judith Butler postmodern "what do words mean anyway" bullshit).

Here's Helen Joyce (of the Economist, who's just written a book on the subject) talking about the social contagion aspect, comparing it with eating disorders, and how they've spread around the world, partly via teaching:

I don’t think it’s hugely helpful to be telling children that liking certain things that society says are female makes them girls, or the other way around. I think it’s far more beneficial to let them know that they can express themselves however they want regardless of whether they are a boy or a girl. They don’t need to put themselves in boxes.

There are trans people who say they’ve known they were trans since they can remember - I’m not saying that children don’t experience these feelings but the majority don’t. I have always dealt with it by saying that all children can enjoy all toys/clothes/games.

I hate this cult. Hell would freeze over before I would vote for them. I guess the issue is the lack of a viable alternative. My husband for example (highly clever and educated person) votes for them because there’s no one else for him to realistically vote for as a supporter of independence (we don’t discuss politics in our house. I think I’d end up divorcing him the whole thing makes me so angry). He simply will not vote Tory and the rest of them are pretty farcical.

I was that 4 year old who wanted to be a boy. The reality was I wanted to be able to do the things I wasn't able to as a girl such as play football or get muddy. I also looked up to my big brother and wanted to be just like him. I proved to people I was a boy by teaching myself to pee standing up.

I was immature with an immature logic about what would allow me to do the same things my amazing brother could and I figured being a boy would let me do that.

If I was 4 now, I would be pushed down the line of being trans and that would've fucked up my life completely. It would've ruined my life.

It is sexism for the new generation - if you are a boy you behave this way. If you are a girl who behaves this way, you are also a boy. It's 1950s sexism.

so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth

What?!? Sex is determined at birth (and before) from what can be seen.

@PicaK

I think gender dysphoria is real. I think if it saves a small child from feeling suicidal it's a good thing. I can only imagine it's an incredibly emotional and hard thing to parent... so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth. Showing signs by 4 and having battled through seeing Drs and being referred - It's hardly something people are going to rush into on a whim.

You've swallowed the Mermaids propaganda whole here. Activists trying to get us to prioritise gender over sex have done their level best to prevent research in this area, but a few short years ago when the number of trans-identifying people was far, far smaller than it is now, and when the majority were male, not teenage females as now, researchers found that most people with gender dysphoria had at least one of the following:

Experience of a family trauma, e.g. bereavement, parents divorcing

Experience of sexual abuse

Being on the autistic spectrum

Being depressed/anxious, often as a result of bullying at school

Came from home a home/community/religious group with rigid gender stereotyping and where homosexuality was regarded as a sin

If a boy is told from babyhood on 'Put the doll down, that's a girls' toy! You're a boy, you don't play with dolls. Why aren't you out playing football with the other boys? What's the matter with you? No, you can't play with the dressing up clothes, what are you, a cissy? Stop crying, you're a boy, boys don't cry!' and so on, it's no wonder he may start to feel that being a boy is awful and he'd be happier as a girl. And vice versa for girls.

If a child is in extreme distress, what's needed is counselling/therapy from an experienced, sensible professional, probably for the whole family, so the child's natural personality is accepted. It's beyond my comprehension how we've got to a point where this kind of approach is considered harmful and putting a child on track to have irreversible harmful changes to their healthy body from hormone therapy and surgery is considered preferable.

I’m not happy about the sexist language “girl brains”. I thought we had moved on from this in 2021. I remember in the late 1970s I was not allowed to study metal work or DT at my secondary school because I was a girl. I had hoped this sexist attitude had changed but clearly not.

When I was 6 I thought I was a horse.

@rogdmum that's really awful and shows that when people say 'it'll never happen', they are just deluding themselves. The Scottish Government are so captured by this ideology that they are prepared to be unlawful. And yes, I noticed that the tone of the whole of this new document is very much about 'educating' 'intolerant' parents - never mind about 'watchful waiting', right?

Hoping it all works out for you

I'm a Scottish parent and I'm quite happy that my children are taught understanding and tolerance in nursery and school

People always spout this. Usually to try and shut down discussion.

Kids should already he being taught not to he bullies.

If someone could tell me what's tolerant about teaching kids their bounderies and discomfort are bigoted and that removing their privacy and dignity by forcing them all to get changed in mixed sex spaces , that would be great.

That seems the opposite of tolerant to me. It trampled over the rights of every other child.

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

• If a boy is told from babyhood on 'Put the doll down, that's a girls' toy! You're a boy, you don't play with dolls. Why aren't you out playing football with the other boys? What's the matter with you? No, you can't play with the dressing up clothes, what are you, a cissy? Stop crying, you're a boy, boys don't cry!' and so on, it's no wonder he may start to feel that being a boy is awful and he'd be happier as a girl. And vice versa for girls.

If a child is in extreme distress, what's needed is counselling/therapy from an experienced, sensible professional, probably for the whole family, so the child's natural personality is accepted. It's beyond my comprehension how we've got to a point where this kind of approach is considered harmful and putting a child on track to have irreversible harmful changes to their healthy body from hormone therapy and surgery is considered preferable.*

Interesting. Sounds possible. Do you have any links to the research you mention which arrived at these conclusions?

And yes, I noticed that the tone of the whole of this new document is very much about 'educating' 'intolerant' parents - never mind about 'watchful waiting', right?

It was also expressly stated in the old document, this is nothing new.

I also do hope that there are specific policies to teach tolerance and understanding about all the protected characteristics under the Equality Act 2010.

If not, why the focus on particularly?

Posted too soon- *This particularly

I just wonder about all this. I totally get that we need to help confused children.

But why push gender stereotypes on them? As DS who thought that he had to stop some interests as they were “girly”? This came up on the way home from school the day this was taught.

Why can’t we do away with stereotypes and tell everyone that they are valid?

DD is 13yo and in Scotland

Last year was particularly difficult as everyone of her friends seemed to have declared themselves as non-binary, lesbian, gay or trans.

DD got put under pressure to conform and if she continued to say she was straight she was apparently homophobic.

One of her male friends changed his name to Demon (no joke) and apparently demanded all teachers and school staff respected that. They refused as his parents did not know or consent nor did the pupil want them to know. Will they now have to agree?

Another of her friends (female) changed her name to Bubbles (again, no joke) and sent everyone messages about how she loves Pssy and can anyone help find her some pssy. I have known that girl since P1 as she and DD were good friends. She's a lovely girl and its shocking how she's changed. Her mum clearly has no idea of the name change etc but her mum has expressed concerns about her DDs mental health during lockdown.

DD was getting so upset and confused that she begged us to move her to another school. We looked at private schools because the trans movement is everywhere in state.

Fortunately, however, DD seems to have found a 'normal' group at her current school, partly with our help, and hopefully she's gotten away from that crowd now. It was a very scary time for us as parents.

There's some posters here who really don't have a clue do they?

Even a large number of trans people absolutely do not agree with boxing young children in so early on, given that 80/90 % of children who think they're trans later realise they're gay and the long term medical implications of the drugs.

Kids are proclaiming they’re trans at dd’s school. Not to the extent of your dd’s school Bridget. That is off the scale. I’m in England btw. Notably this only started happening after lessons at school. Schools are doing such harm to children. Woke bollocks.

Dd is 13 and part of a group of kids, who are all basically super straight. Then there is another group, the lesbians. Again this categorisation of kids in this way only became apparent after the lessons. It then stands to reason at some stage in her school or other schools, there will be a group known as the trans kids, probably filled with the odd boy and a lot of girls with ROGD.

As a parent imo all identity politics has done is created an expectation that children identify themselves within a bunch of stereotypes and sexual preferences. Supposed tolerance has given way to heightened intolerance. And it’s coming from both sides, which is only to be expected due to the hostility surrounding trans. Predictably homosexual kids are getting caught in the cross fire.

When I was at school, it certainly wasn’t like this and I’m early 50s. We didn’t know who was straight, gay or lesbian. Well, one or two boys it was obvious. He used to hang around with the girls because they boys weren’t nice. But kids still aren’t nice and it’s getting worse as battle lines seem to be being drawn. So as far as I’m concerned, things have gone backwards, not forwards.

@PicaK

I think gender dysphoria is real. I think if it saves a small child from feeling suicidal it's a good thing. I can only imagine it's an incredibly emotional and hard thing to parent... so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth. Showing signs by 4 and having battled through seeing Drs and being referred - It's hardly something people are going to rush into on a whim.

No one 'made a call' at birth. A baby's sex is declared at birth and noted. No one can change sex. That is quite different from gender and gender identity.

It’s absolute garbage to assert that there are scores of school aged children running around with gender dysphoria. It seems like the political trans lobby have pushed it until it has become a trend amongst older kids to want to try this ‘trend’. It’s just the Lea test fad. And onto the younger ones. Why should they be left unscathed by this harmful indoctrination.

I do agree it’s particularly hard on gay children, as they are not now permitted by a certain sector to assert same sex attraction without being proclaimed bigots.

I worry about gay children too based on what DS said. He came home and told me that all gay boys were effeminate. This was after the same external trans/pride/whatever was in school. I read him the riot act - poor DS was quite taken aback.

Sexuality has nothing to do with identity and presentation.

DS had tons of questions about both trans, mainly “what do I need to stop doing so I won’t turn into a girl?”. I think that is limiting and unforgivable.

DS also had questions about being gay mainly “why do all gay boys act so silly” - where I told him it was utter bollocks, they don’t!!! And after that, “ would you mind if I was gay and how would I know?” on which I said that of course I wouldn’t mind the slightest and that he would figure it out once he got older.

The thought of many children having all these stupid misconceptions after these lessons and not being able to talk to their parents or their parents being busy. And what if one of them said “I like drawing, maybe I am a girl then” and the school kept it secret from the parents.

My son came home filled with sex stereotypes and statements I perceived to be homophobic. DS is 8!! We have mostly undone this damage as I am very close to my son and we talk about everything. I fear for the other children.

I think that overall its great that society is becoming more Accepting as we should be, but we are going a step too far. Children should be taught about all walks of life and should be taught acceptance. But

Young children know nothing of gender. Its a social Construction based on what society thinks should be the norm regarding sex. By declaring children need to change sex to meet gender stereotypes is actually going backwards when we spent such a long time fighting for gender equality.

Since teaching children about trans etc there has been a rapid increase, is this because more children are willing to speak or is it because its a trend p. Of course these things have always been around and of course the children who need the support should absolutely be given it to the highest level but i feel that we are planting seeds in children's minds that just dont need to be there.

We can educate children when the time is right, as teenagers and young adults but we dont need to be focusing on this for nursery and primary children . Let them be children. But educate the adults, all adults so that if and when children do need support its there.