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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

How do Scottish parents feel about what 4 year olds are being taught

284 replies

Namechangednotanewuser · 13/08/2021 21:56

Name changed for this.

So the Scottish govt decided that 4 year olds should be taught about gender dysphoria. Does a 4 year old really need to think about this or be taught about it. Is there anyone you know, looking back wishes that they had been taught this at 4? Who really thinks this is a good idea. Has every other generation been disadvantaged by not having this relentlessly pushed upon them as children. Just cannot get my head around it, and cannot imagine any Scottish parents being ok with this. But they clearly are or otherwise it wouldn’t be happening.

OP posts:
Namechangednotanewuser · 13/08/2021 23:38

What I don’t get is why are Scottish parents ok with it? Why do they put up with this? It’s a child protection issue. The relentless proliferation of this ideology is creating a problem for our children where there isn’t one.

OP posts:
Waitwhat23 · 13/08/2021 23:39

This is the document referred to in media reports - www.gov.scot/publications/supporting-transgender-young-people-schools-guidance-scottish-schools/pages/2/

In terms of parents not being informed, this initial passage refers only for it being recommended to gain consent from parents

'Recognising the rights of all parents and carers, it is recommended that consent is obtained from all of those with parental responsibilities for those young people under 16. '

However, it is later stated that-

'• If the young person has not told their family, school staff may want to discuss the most likely reaction with the young person. This will allow the teacher and the young person to discuss whether sharing information is in the young person’s best interests, and if so, what information to share and with whom.
• Offer to arrange a meeting with parents or carers; agree this with the young person in advance of the meeting and mutually agree key information to be shared in the
discussion and by whom.'

Which gives the impression that parents may well not be advised of social transitioning.

From the document - 'There is no law in Scotland which states that only people assigned male at birth can use men's toilets and changing rooms, or that only people assigned female can use women's
toilets and changing rooms. This is instead done by social convention' which may come as a surprise to many people. There have been anecdotal reports of girls limiting liquids in order not to use the mixed sex toilets which are gradually being introduced into schools.

However, there is a requirement for single sex accommodation in terms of residential trips under the exemptions of the Equality Act 2010, (fairplayforwomen.com/equality-act-2010_womens-rights/) so it is slightly startling to read -

'• If a transgender young person wants to share a room with other young people who
share their gender identity, they should be able to do so, as long as the rights of all
those involved are considered and respected.

• If any young person, including a transgender young person, is concerned about sharing a room with others, you could consider making alternative arrangements, including giving them their own room where appropriate.

• If any young person voices a concern, this should be considered - responses should be reasonable and proportionate, taking into account the rights of all young people.'

as its not at all difficult to envisage a young person who is uncomfortable with the situation to be 'encouraged' into the 'correct inclusive mindset', particularly given the language throughout this document.

In terms of PE lessons, the document states-

'We recommend:
• if PE classes are organised by sex, a transgender young person should be allowed to take part within the group which matches their gender identity. For a non- binary young person, ask them which group they would feel most comfortable being with
• that any school competition should take account of the age and stage of development of the participants
• for inter-school competitions, the same approaches to ensure fairness and safety
should apply. It may be helpful to a young person if you speak to the equivalent staff in the other school(s) to let them know there is a transgender young person in your team/competition, but only with the young person's consent.'

In Primary school aged children, mixed sex sports are not a issue to any great extent. With the effects of testosterone when a boy goes through puberty, this will create a disadvantage for girls. Teenage boys can easily beat women's world records - www.boysvswomen.com

Is there a policy advising on how to deal with sexism and misogyny against girls in educational establishments? There may well not be as the Scottish Government's Hate Crime Bill does not include women and girls as a group to be protected against Hate.

jobbeedancer · 13/08/2021 23:40

Maybe you would have been happier changing gender or not being confined to a gender had you been given the option.

I think genders and trans etc can become quite a confusing matter. But when I was young I was assumed to be straight. I was told I would grow up and marry a man and have children (which I did) but I've always found women much much more attractive than men? And it just makes me wonder if when I was younger had I been allowed to explore my sexuality by being educated about it if I might actually have ended up dating women?

I think educating children on these topics and allowing them to explore themselves is a good thing.

Ellieboolou33 · 13/08/2021 23:43

@Namechangednotanewuser

What I don’t get is why are Scottish parents ok with it? Why do they put up with this? It’s a child protection issue. The relentless proliferation of this ideology is creating a problem for our children where there isn’t one.
Agree, all this woke shit is ruining childhood / children
Cabinfever10 · 13/08/2021 23:44

@BoredZelda considering that the guidance that this replaced was ruled illegal in a court of law I am extremely troubled by how little has been changed especially when you look at the number of parents who have been reported to social services by schools simply for choosing a watchful waiting approach (tried and tested treatment) verses affirmation therapy (highly controversial and experimental) this is what happens when the person who is in charge of the education department is the same person who is behind the self id for anyone who is 16+ after just a few months 🤯🤬

Waitwhat23 · 13/08/2021 23:47

And the phrase 'sex assigned at birth' indicates institutional capture. Sex can be observed in utero through scans and amino tests, sometimes at a very early stage. It is not assigned at birth, unless referring to historically in terms of people with a disorder of sexual development (DSD, often incorrectly referred to as Intersex) whose sex would be assigned in the case of ambiguous genitalia. However, people with a DSD have either XX or XY chromosomes and this can now be pinpointed by karyotype testing. Stonewall (who have recently come under fire for misrepresenting the law when advising institutions who are 'Stonewall Champions') use this sort of language.

Namechangednotanewuser · 13/08/2021 23:49

@Waitwhat23
Strangely enough the guidance in question has been created in consultation with stonewall.

OP posts:
HeddaAga · 13/08/2021 23:50

The relentless proliferation of this ideology is creating a problem for our children where there isn’t one.

Amen. Leave the kids alone.

Waitwhat23 · 13/08/2021 23:54

The Scottish Government were pulled up in a recent court case for stating that TWAW is a Governmental policy when this has not been publicised to the general public and neither have the general public been consulted. This is a natural progression of that policy.

QueenBee52 · 13/08/2021 23:55

@HeddaAga

The relentless proliferation of this ideology is creating a problem for our children where there isn’t one.

Amen. Leave the kids alone.

this 🎉

Wineandroses3 · 13/08/2021 23:56

It’s absolutely totally and utterly ridiculous to any reasonable person.

MummBraTheEverLeaking · 14/08/2021 01:21

Sex is not "assigned at birth". This was usually used when talking about those with DSDs. For it to be used in this manner is ridiculous.

You cannot change sex. Sure you can take various hormones, have whatever surgeries but it does not mean you have literally changed into the opposite sex. We are not doing anyone any favours by presenting the line that you somehow can just because we don't want anyone to get upset. Not everyone has a 'gender identity' whatever that even means. Everyone has a sex though. Gender should not be trumping sex.

Kids should be able to play with whatever the hell they want or wear what they like without a "that's for girls/boys" message behind it. Kids don't know 'girls' things and 'boy' things until they get told ffs.

There is nothing wrong with watchful waiting, but unfortunately that doesn't make certain charities and organisations any money - so now we're told there is! Who'd have thunk it eh?!

So yes, creating a problem where there is none for lots of affirming only sevice referrals and forking out for training and it's all very lovely and progressive isn't it 🤔

JustJoinedRightNow · 14/08/2021 01:25

@PicaK

I think gender dysphoria is real. I think if it saves a small child from feeling suicidal it's a good thing. I can only imagine it's an incredibly emotional and hard thing to parent... so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth. Showing signs by 4 and having battled through seeing Drs and being referred - It's hardly something people are going to rush into on a whim.
I agree with this post.
QueenBee52 · 14/08/2021 01:53

@Wineandroses3

It’s absolutely totally and utterly ridiculous to any reasonable person.

I agree 🌺

GintyMcGinty · 14/08/2021 01:55

I'm a Scottish parent and I'm quite happy that my children are taught understanding and tolerance in nursery and school.

KingofQueens · 14/08/2021 02:03

@mizz70

I am Scottish also had a female only cancer that only biological females can have , I have a daughter this makes me mad you cannot change biological sex
No. But you can change your gender. Sex and gender are not the same. This is about GENDER not biological sex.
QueenBee52 · 14/08/2021 02:03

@GintyMcGinty

I'm a Scottish parent and I'm quite happy that my children are taught understanding and tolerance in nursery and school.

do you not practise this at home ?

LemonSwan · 14/08/2021 02:40

I am starting to think we should be telling the kids earlier.

Young kids are pretty cutting with their question interrogations and have literally no filter. That doesn't really develop until 7 earliest.

You try telling a 6 yo that a non passing TW is a woman and they will laugh at you, stamp their feet and indignantly shout 'no its a man!'

VashtaNerada · 14/08/2021 02:59

I think teachers deserve more credit here. In my class I relentlessly challenge gender stereotypes and obviously wouldn’t be saying that a child who doesn’t conform to stereotypes is another gender. I’ve only ever taught one child who has transitioned socially (with parental knowledge) and it is really unusual at primary age. This particular child has been adamant about being a different gender since nursery but only started to use a different name in Year 4. They dressed in a non-typical way for a year or so before changing their name. I’m no longer their teacher but I know that I’d be making it very clear that they could change back to their old name any time they want, and would continue to challenge gender stereotypes with the whole class. It is really rare for this type of thing to come up with young children and teachers would use their professional judgement as and when it does.

Scottishskifun · 14/08/2021 03:06

I'm all for teaching acceptance and tolerance. Not happy with the language used though especially the "assigned at birth" statements.

Definitely agree with moving away from stereotyping especially in young children but for me it has the potential to go too far and is then dependent on the teacher.

Given our education stats are horrific I would have hoped that more focus would have been on improving this but I don't expect anything more from the SNP.

Also a lot of us don't vote for this!

Yellownotblue · 14/08/2021 03:14

@PicaK
so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth

I don’t understand this. There is no call made about gender, either at birth or afterwards.

Sex is observed (at birth and, in the vast majority of cases, well before birth), not assigned. There is no sorting hat.

Gender is a social construct, but sex is biological. My 10 year old boy understands this.

As for “making the wrong call” - whose call do you think that is, and how is it wrong?

SaltySheepdog · 14/08/2021 03:24

Personally I feel this will create safeguarding issues with schools automatically affirming the ideology and parents unable to safeguard their vulnerable children. Particularly in light of trans identifying young people often being influenced by peers ideas around the trans ideology or having some body issues due to puberty/trauma/abuse or other factors such as autism and anxiety.

montysma1 · 14/08/2021 03:57

A, great many S kttish parents are not OK with this. But we can do fuck all about it.
A woman is already facing charges for saying that sex is real.

SmokeyDevil · 14/08/2021 05:33

@GreatAuntEmily

Horrendous stats on drug deaths, shortage of funding for education etcetc but SNP want to be wokey McWokeface and they spend their time on this. Honestly Scotland gets what it deserves voting for this bunch.
We don't all like snp, trust me. Only 45% of Scotland actually voted for them, the snp are just too daft to have realised this means they are not actually as popular as they think.

They should be spending money on things they have control over, which is a lot now thanks to their whining. But they don't bother. They just blame England for things failing. Them being in full charge of Scotland will bring it to its knees.

I also don't agree with this. Tell kids they can like whatever they want, sure. But telling them they may not feel like they are a boy or a girl and want to be different? That's just pushing confusion onto them. You wait, give in 20-30 years and you'll have people complaining that they were pushed into believing they were a boy when they were a girl and vice versa.

FourTeaFallOut · 14/08/2021 05:44

Are they also going to teach 4yo children to jump through the linguistic hoops and reality pitfalls to affirm other people's dysphoria? Shall we tell them that we should affirm the anorexics assertion that they are actually fat or that the teen taking steroids to bulk up is following their own path to self acceptance?