How do Scottish parents feel about what 4 year olds are being taught

[Namechangednotanewuser]

Name changed for this.

So the Scottish govt decided that 4 year olds should be taught about gender dysphoria. Does a 4 year old really need to think about this or be taught about it. Is there anyone you know, looking back wishes that they had been taught this at 4? Who really thinks this is a good idea. Has every other generation been disadvantaged by not having this relentlessly pushed upon them as children. Just cannot get my head around it, and cannot imagine any Scottish parents being ok with this. But they clearly are or otherwise it wouldn’t be happening.

And would it make them kinder children to do that?

Children much older than four believe in Santa Claus. The myth of the Vagina Fairy ,who will swap your biological sex,should not be told to children in schools until they have a grip on the distinction between the reality and unreality of Santa.

@FourTeaFallOut

Are they also going to teach 4yo children to jump through the linguistic hoops and reality pitfalls to affirm other people's dysphoria? Shall we tell them that we should affirm the anorexics assertion that they are actually fat or that the teen taking steroids to bulk up is following their own path to self acceptance?

Well they won't talk about anorexia or steroids because they aren't the 'in' topics right now. Give it a year and the snp will either change it to the next controversial subject or they will be gunning for independence so they'll have braveheart on repeat in all schools.

They dressed in a non-typical way for a year or so before changing their name.

They dressed in a non-typical way? What does that mean? So they dressed differently from the way society expects a boy or girl to dress? Why does this always come back to social stereotypes about clothes. This. Does. Not. Mean. A. Child's. Body. Is. Wrong.

No class, Mel Gibson is not a woman. Yes, he does have long hair....yes, it's technically a skirt, I suppose...yes, he does like a blue eye...but, he's a man and we know this because ...yes, I'll resign.

@PicaK

I think gender dysphoria is real. I think if it saves a small child from feeling suicidal it's a good thing. I can only imagine it's an incredibly emotional and hard thing to parent... so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth. Showing signs by 4 and having battled through seeing Drs and being referred - It's hardly something people are going to rush into on a whim.

small children do not feel suicidal

suicide is a learnt behaviour

suicide is a lot more likely after transitioning compared to before

I think this must be beyond difficult to teach. And I am very unhappy with schools keeping things from parents. I think keeping anything from parents should only be the last resort.

We are not in Scotland but DS’ (early primary) school taught the children this crap without warning the parents. I was so cross. DS came home telling me that drawing was for girls so he needed to quit drawing (DS loves drawing and is amazing at it). DS actually seemed to worry that he might turn into a girl if he kept drawing and the thought terrified him. He also speculated that a boy in his class might really be a girl because this boy had shoulder long hair.

How can you teach this sensibly to children who believe in Santa? Without increasing stereotypes? I hate sex stereotypes .

Any government policy that uses the phrase ‘assigned at birth’ is not neutral and is an imposition of ideology.

I’m a Scottish parent and horrified, though I am pleased that at last what the SG has been pushing has got the attention from the outer world. People can’t believe it as it’s so insane.

The guidelines are actually just as bad. No right to single sex toilets in schools, no talk of safeguards for, example, women and girls.

The new guidance is more measured than the old - yes it’s still possible for a child to transition socially at school without their parents knowledge, but the previous guidance saw girls being excluded from toilets, changing rooms and dormitories if they refused to share with a transitioning child, and parents not being told their child was sharing a bedroom with a trans child.

It’s not great, but it’s more measured than it was.

Maybe you would have been happier changing gender or not being confined to a gender had you been given the option.

Women have been fighting for the right to not be confined to a gender for hundreds of years.

Until recently we were making good progress.

@Namechangednotanewuser

What I don’t get is why are Scottish parents ok with it? Why do they put up with this? It’s a child protection issue. The relentless proliferation of this ideology is creating a problem for our children where there isn’t one.

@Namechangednotanewuser I genuinely think people don’t know what’s going on.

And they struggle to believe it as it sounds so mad.

And people are scared in case they’re called transphobic and possibly prosecuted.

It’s not great, but it’s more measured than it was.

I don’t think so.

The key issue is that guidance is advising teachers that significant information relating to a child’s welfare may be withheld from a young child’s legal guardian without any proper process.

@PicaK

I think gender dysphoria is real. I think if it saves a small child from feeling suicidal it's a good thing. I can only imagine it's an incredibly emotional and hard thing to parent... so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth. Showing signs by 4 and having battled through seeing Drs and being referred - It's hardly something people are going to rush into on a whim.

So much complexity in what kids are told/ taught/ absorb from society: (words of a transwoman)

Why should kids (parents of kids and the adults around them) fuck up their bodies when it's social pressures that are the root cause?

When the discussion (inevitably) turns to the definition of 'trans' being something along the lines of, "having a different gender identity to the sex you were assigned at birth", I always want to ask what gender identity they think matches being 'assigned female at birth'.

Even leaving aside the "assigned at birth" bit, that phrase is always a sleight of hand. It's not, "identifying with another sex to the sex you were assigned at birth" or even, "having a different gender identity to the gender identity you were assigned at birth" which compare apples and apples, or oranges and oranges and can be debated sensibly. The sentence starts with gender identity and quickly pivots to sex as though they're synonymous.

The only answers to the question of which gender identities match being female lead down a sexist rabbit hole. At best you'll have someone tell you that it's someone who "feels female", but probing that one step further either leads to exactly the same sexist stereotypes or a claim to basically religious belief and a refusal to expand ('you just know') because they are completely aware that any fuller answer leads to sexist stereotypes.

I don't think it's conscious and deliberate in most people; I think it's a sad indictment of the deeply baked-in sexism in which we live without really being aware of it.

Of Scotland are happy to allow young children to transition, I hope they're going to be honest about some of the side effects youngsters will end up with, that are rarely discussed, so that full informed consent can be made:

Sinead moves on to discuss the gynaecological issues cross section hormones cause, which really belong on the meno board.

twitter.com/imwatson91/status/1426304418727833604?s=21

Obviously this isn't including effects on bone health.

'Recognising the rights of all parents and carers, it is recommended that consent is obtained from all of those with parental responsibilities for those young people under 16. '

Legal guardians don’t need information about their child’s welfare to protect their own rights, they need it to protect their children’s rights.

The document seems to frame this as a confrontation or clash of rights.

However, unless a court has intervened, a parent is the only person who can represent their child’s rights. A school does not have the authority to make decisions on a child’s behalf, so is not in a position to provide care.

*if

I've seen that the guidance recommends teaching about pink and blue brains.

Is this sexist tripe true?

@PicaK

I think gender dysphoria is real. I think if it saves a small child from feeling suicidal it's a good thing. I can only imagine it's an incredibly emotional and hard thing to parent... so much guilt at having let the wrong call be made after birth. Showing signs by 4 and having battled through seeing Drs and being referred - It's hardly something people are going to rush into on a whim.

The "wrong call"? Medical professionals react to what they see! It might be "incorrect" subsequently, but it's not "wrong".

I was a 'tomboy' when young. No one laughed, or gave a monkey's. My eldest son (in his 30s) 'got married' at play school. He wore the dress. No laughed or cared. When 11 he dressed up as a WW1 nurse. No one cared or laughed. Just let everyone be what they want to be when they want to be it.

[quote Cabinfever10]@BoredZelda considering that the guidance that this replaced was ruled illegal in a court of law I am extremely troubled by how little has been changed especially when you look at the number of parents who have been reported to social services by schools simply for choosing a watchful waiting approach (tried and tested treatment) verses affirmation therapy (highly controversial and experimental) this is what happens when the person who is in charge of the education department is the same person who is behind the self id for anyone who is 16+ after just a few months 🤯🤬[/quote]
My daughter’s school referred us to social services for not affirming her as a boy. This was a year after they fully supported her social transition at school without telling us, then when we found out, pretended they had rowed back and then we we found that out, told us we had no say as parents.

My daughter has been assessed both privately and on the NHS and affirmation is harmful to her. Social services also assessed after the school reported us, and agreed with the mental health professionals and said school was causing division.

Yet the school refuses to row back - I’m assuming because of their adherence to the previous LGBTYS guidance (and now official from ScotGov) which says pupils must be affirmed.

I raised it with ScotGov who assured me the role of parents would be included in the new guidance and they are- to pretty much tell schools to work to educate us in the importance of affirming. ScotGov did tell me that schools are not legally obliged to affirm where mental health professionals have advised against it- I.e. it is a choice by the school and it is likely unlawful without parental agreement (hence the stressing to schools in the new guidance that they need to take their own legal advice):

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/35e99aa2-b038-11eb-b844-593e41a4a1a5?shareToken=111b69dc74c66a8e42f675ad782cf15d

I have written to LGBTYS to ask their position where mental health experts have advised against affirmation. They haven’t bothered to respond.

I’m far from alone. It has been happening in schools under the old guidance and I suspect will increase under the new one.

Ok, so say there are a tiny amount of dysphoric children that this may help. Great!

But are they helped by imposing stereotypes on them? My DS is a happy boy and wants to be a boy. After these gender lessons he wanted to stop hobbies that were “for girls”. That is crazy. What if he had come home as said “I like drawing so I must be a girl?” In his case football won.

However well intended these lessons don’t seem to work in many cases.