How do Scottish parents feel about what 4 year olds are being taught

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Name changed for this.

So the Scottish govt decided that 4 year olds should be taught about gender dysphoria. Does a 4 year old really need to think about this or be taught about it. Is there anyone you know, looking back wishes that they had been taught this at 4? Who really thinks this is a good idea. Has every other generation been disadvantaged by not having this relentlessly pushed upon them as children. Just cannot get my head around it, and cannot imagine any Scottish parents being ok with this. But they clearly are or otherwise it wouldn’t be happening.

I’m genderfluid - I think. I’m wearing trousers today. But my hair is long. I work in a traditionally male career and I’m not particularly maternal. Is that what it means that I don’t confirm with what society says is male or female behaviours? But I’m sexually attracted to males.

It’s not the same as bi sexual. Gender fluid does not mean no sexual. Gay, lesbian bi, are not anything to do with gender. To say otherwise is homophobic.

So when someone says their child is gender fluid what does it actually mean?

And I didn't know about either of them until after they'd already come to the conclusion that they identified this way.

I obviously can't comment on your children or how they reached this conclusion.

However identity based concepts of 'gender fluid' and 'cis' and 'trans' depend on the belief that everyone's identity can be viewed through the lens of cultural expectations of how a man or woman should behave and that there is such a thing as a male and female identify.

People should be as free to believe in gender identity as they should be free to believe in heaven or God.

However people should also be free to believe that identity is an individual and subjective concept and people should not have to classify their identify as anything, and it should be possible to debate and discuss this just as it is possible to debate and discuss any religious belief.

Separately, some people suffer from gender dysphoria and they need evidence based care.

The policy proposed in Scottish schools is ideological, not evidenced based care for children with gender dysphoria.

I find it hard to understand how gender ideology has become so mainstream when no-one can even say what gender means, other than regressive stereotypes e.g. if you like dinosaurs and football you must be a boy with a "boy brain" even though you are biologically a girl.

I've never come across any definition of gender by gender ideologues that doesn't rely on regressive stereotypes or tautology. Does one exist?

The guidance has an infographic that shows the difference between supportive and unsupportive parents. Amongst other things, it states that 4% of 'trans youths with supportive parents' attempt suicide compared to 57% of those with unsupportive parents. I'd imagine any parent would be terrified by these stats.

The data is misleading though. It comes from a Canadian study carried out in 2012 where none of the participants were under the age of 16.

This thread goes into more detail:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1426476745662902273.html

It's appalling that they've used data gathered from adults in guidance aimed at children as young as 4 yo. It's also shocking that they have advised schools and local authorities that they may need to seek legal advice to ensure that they are complying with the law when they implement these guidelines. That's totally unacceptable from the SG. They have published guidance that they know may be illegal. The SNP are an absolute disgrace.

They have published guidance that they know may be illegal. The SNP are an absolute disgrace.

Yes. How anyone can support them I do not know.

@Kittii I’ve never seen a definition other than “boy things/girl things”

@MellieBellie

The guidance has an infographic that shows the difference between supportive and unsupportive parents. Amongst other things, it states that 4% of 'trans youths with supportive parents' attempt suicide compared to 57% of those with unsupportive parents. I'd imagine any parent would be terrified by these stats.

The data is misleading though. It comes from a Canadian study carried out in 2012 where none of the participants were under the age of 16.

This thread goes into more detail:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1426476745662902273.html

It's appalling that they've used data gathered from adults in guidance aimed at children as young as 4 yo. It's also shocking that they have advised schools and local authorities that they may need to seek legal advice to ensure that they are complying with the law when they implement these guidelines. That's totally unacceptable from the SG. They have published guidance that they know may be illegal. The SNP are an absolute disgrace.

The data issue is a disgrace. Scaring parents. There is no evidence to support these statements regarding suicide.

@KittiiI’ve never seen a definition other than “boy things/girl things

The charities that support trans people say its nothing to do with stereotypes or being in the wrong body

However a dx of gender dysphoria requires 6 symptoms out of a list of 8 criteria.

Now if you remove the parts that correlate to the body being wrong or gender stereotypes you are not left with enough to qualify fir a DX

@Whatwouldscullydo do you know what the 8 criteria are? I've googled and can't find anything.

And again what exactly do they define as a supportive parent. What about informing us about the statistics regarding the many young people who question their gender only to remain the same sex and carry on To have a fulfilling life. The same people whose parents supported them to explore their gender identity, sexuality and whatever else without supporting the physical changes to their bodies.

So many young people now a days dont like their bodies, due to media pressure etc And trans can be used for some to become something else. Thats ok To explore these feelings, agirl wants her hair cut and to wear jeans and a hoody well thats ok and if a boy wants to wear dresses and makeup thats ok too. No one cares that much.

What we worry about is this idea being forced onto our you g developing kids and parents being blamed for not supporting their children to physically change the bodies they were born with.

If a child at 13 isnt seen as competent enough to choose to have a tattoo then how can we argue they are competent enough to choose to bind to stop their own physical development.

I found this on an NHS gender identity clinic website:

"Gender dysphoria describes the distress experienced by those whose gender identity feels at odds with aspects of their body and/or the social gender role assigned to them at birth. This can be experienced as physical discomfort, and psychological and emotional distress. Social factors are often key in the experience of gender dysphoria."

By this definition I have gender dysphoria as I feel psychological and emotional distress about the social gender roles that have been assigned to me at birth as a female.

gic.nhs.uk/info-support/gender-dysphoria/

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

www.ietherapy.com/gender-identity-disorder/self-test/gender-identity-disorder-self-test.php

Even though they are all from.differebt sources you can see that it is literally all abkut the body being wrong and stereotypes

adc.bmj.com/content/103/7/631

So basically as a society we have stereotypes that we call gender that define how people should behave regarding the sex they are born.

If an individual then feels that they dont match that stereotype due to their sex then rather than say oh hang on maybe our stereotyping is wrong, we put blame On the individuals physical and mental being and find ways to change them. Including drastically changing their own physical bodies.

We then introduce this new belief into our childrens minds and encourage them to also question their gender and if in turn the parents disagree we give the schools the green light to go behind the parents backs.

This in turn may lead to the break down of families and trust between parents and children and parents and the school. Lead to years of mental health issues for all involved.

Meanwhile those who really do need the help cant access it because our small amount of resources are overloaded trying to work out this sorry mess we have created. Or those with real Gender dysphoria are dismissed as being part of the latest trend.

And again what exactly do they define as a supportive parent

I've had this conversation with my dd when she's said about how sone people aren't safe at home.

I told her that if she is genuinely worried about the safety and well being of anyone she knows she's to tell a teacher or a trusted adult. That uts on them.to establish the details not for her to override her boundaries to "solve the problem"

I also told her to not confuse being worried, asking questions or genuine concerns about things as a phobia or Ism of some kind.

Parents will worry about anything in their kids lives that may make things more difficult, or dangerous or harder work etc. They also may not understand or approve. BUT- that doesn't always translate to being unsupportive or abusive towards their child. That they still love and want the best fir their child.

I told her that this fear is being induced in order to emotionally blackmail the children and to excuse a complete overstep on the part of the adults.

Transsexuals have existed probably as long as humans have. I don't understand why trans wasn't a question on the census ? How can we accurately plan for society without some kind of indication of how often this occurs. Estimates are around 1%

Our approach to this issue went from one of indifference to a lurching overreaction. We are still learning about this issue. There should be some framework around it rather than politicising it.

These facts are indisputable:

Biological sex can not be changed - every single cell carries an xx or xy chromosomes.

Gender dysphoria is a real medical condition.

Men and women are not the same, they have different bodies, different hormones, different metabolisms. Different muscle to fat ratios, different life expectancies etc etc etc.

There are exceptions to nature - expeditions do not disprove any of the above.

Teaching little kids that they can be anything they want to be isn't helpful - it's up to us as adults to introduce and guide them into a confusing world. Why add more confusion at such a young age.

I guarantee in 50 years time people will look back in horror at the things we subjected our children too when they were just little kids with no real grasp about anything

Gender dysphoria is a real medical condition

Unfortunately activists managed to get it removed from the psychiatric category. Which means that it's now considered a sexual health issue as opposed to a psychological one.

We now have no way of ensuring that the dysphoria hasn't been triggered by any kind if trauma even though whistle blowers from the Tavistock have raised concerns about the high levels of gay children, autistic children and in some cases there was even a concern that the parent was a paedophile and that's why they wanted puberty delayed.

None of that can be looked into to. There is no blood test or brain scan and this invisible undefinable condition should be apparently affirmed without exploration into their back grounds despite the fact kids are able to Google exactly what to say to the drs to get the DX.

It is all really bizarre.

I was a teen in the 80s and these gender stereotypes were certainly smashed then!

This seems regressive rather than progressive to me.

The whole things strikes me as bizarre too.

I know many women who live their lives in ways that aren’t stereotypically ‘female’. In terms of the jobs they do, sexual preferences, clothing, interests. They see themselves as women and as far as they’re concerned, the definition of what it is to be women can just stretch to fit them too.

Why are we tying our selves in knots over ‘correct’ gender identity rather than just accepting there are many different ways to be male or female?

I believe there is a small sub set of people who feel actively uncomfortable with their sexual organs and want to change them. That’s absolutely fine, but a very separate issue, and in absolutely no sense relevant to four year olds,

@WouldBeGood

It is all really bizarre.

I was a teen in the 80s and these gender stereotypes were certainly smashed then!

This seems regressive rather than progressive to me.

Yes. As a teen in the nineties we weren't bothered about gender. The boys in my friendship group were just as likely to wear a dress and make-up as the girls and via versa with the baggy jeans and skate shoes.

@Whatwouldscullydo thank you for those links. I will read in full later, but just read the first one and they really are all based on stereotypes aren't they? E.g.

"A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender.
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities."

As someone said upthread, isn't the logical conclusion that we need to do away with regressive stereotypes rather than teach children that they might have been born in the "wrong" body and that its OK to medically or surgically change your body in order to better conform to stereotypes? I'm sure in future years people will look back at this point in society and think we were all crazy.

Yes kitti

We know alot about what trans or GD isnt

But not alot about what it actually is

I've seen no definition beyond " they say they are so they are " of what a man/woman/boy/girl identity is or how anyone knows they have one. How do you identify as something you cant define ?

Adults cannot even agree on it or explain it without using stereotypes or circular definitions , yet somehow kids as young as 4 just know. Kids who can't spell their name or reach a sink.

"A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play.
A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender.
A strong preference for playmates of the other gender.
In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities."

Well that’s most kids then. Unless they are forced to play with certain toys etc. Which would be abuse. I never played with dolls. I didn’t even have a big doll. My gender must be male. Yet why do I not feel safe walking down a dark street or asked once in an interview if I worked white stilettos 😀

It’s a bit horrifying really. I grew up in the 80s. No one would have turned a hair at girls playing with ‘boys’ toys/role playing ‘boys’ roles/preferring to play with boys. Or vice versa.

Yet now this is a problem that needs ‘solving’?

Yet now this is a problem that needs ‘solving’?

Its not a problem. No one in their right mind thinks it's a problem. But when you are made to feel sorry for all these traumatised upset kids, and made to believe that this all has these poor suicidal children, adults will overlook the fact that it's not actually children benefiting from what amounts to the removal of knowledge about their bodies and sexual boundaries and an entire cohort if kids who think Ault males can be women.

This has never been about the children