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AIBU?

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Original poster

That it's not fair!?

267 replies

StompingMyFeet · 11/08/2021 20:27

I've NC for this because I'm aware I'll sound like a Daily Mail article in my rant. I'm just so (irrationally) hurt and upset right now.

We own a 1 bed flat. We do ok, but there's basically no way we'll ever be anywhere bigger even though we both work.We have a DD already , but for the past 3 years I've desperately wanted another baby. There's no room, money would be tricky, childcare , going back to work , OH is getting quite old etc. Plus the impact on DD by having less .. attention,time,space etc. So I know it's a know, I try to make my peace with it and forget about it. Sometimes it just fucking hurts though, so much so that it becomes physical.

Today I saw one of our old neighbours who got moved last year (council) into a two bed. She had DS with her and a baby. While we were chatting she casually said "oh this is what happens when you get a two bedroom" and laughed. I kinda hated her a little bit then, smiled ,fussed over the baby again , said my goodbyes and walked away in tears.

This is the DM part, they don't work , mid twenties , barely good enough parents . It just feels so fucking unfair that I have to consider all the risks and cons and disadvantages because there is no safety net, and tell myself no. I don't begrudge them benefits,or the flat or whatever.. I know they need it and in a way we're a million times more fortunate. But fucking hell, I do begrudge them that baby.

I'll get over it, but today I just want to cry and stamp my feet and rant and shout It's not fair!

OP posts:
IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 13/08/2021 12:45

Working should be something to inspire to

I disagree. It should be the norm to do some form of work. Yes certain career choices will be ones to inspire to aim for but self responsibility and working should just be expected.
The fault lies with having a system that lets people opt out of that or to make a token few hours. A welfare system should be a last resort and cover the minimum basics.
Too simple to blame on employers, they have no say in the lifestyle choices of employees.

Iloveginger · 13/08/2021 12:56

@Babyroobs

A couple over 25 with 2 small children on Uc would get around £980 to live off a month after their rent is paid. If their rent element doesn't cover all their rent then they may have to pay the rent shortfall from that ?
That's going to work out at nearly 12,000 per year net. They are also getting their rent paid and council tax and other subsidised services. Depending on were they live that could be worth anything from 6000 - 12000 per year. approx £20,000 per year tax free for doing nothing. It not a huge amount, but it is to lot of regular working class people that are probably working for less. This is what a lot of middle class hand wringers don't understand, when they come on to shut down people that rightly complain about how unfair the system is, all the while buying shit from amazon and supporting minimum wage jobs that keep people trapped in poverty.
Candydreamer · 13/08/2021 13:02

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

Working should be something to inspire to

I disagree. It should be the norm to do some form of work. Yes certain career choices will be ones to inspire to aim for but self responsibility and working should just be expected.
The fault lies with having a system that lets people opt out of that or to make a token few hours. A welfare system should be a last resort and cover the minimum basics.
Too simple to blame on employers, they have no say in the lifestyle choices of employees.

pretty irrelevant when it comes to the sums though. why would people choose to work if they are better off on benefits? why would they choose to be away from their children if childcare eclipses what they earn?

the fact cost of living had gone up but wages havent is despicable

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 13:03

But @Iloveginger they can't do nothing. They have to work. Most UC claimants work. Albeit in shit, low paid, gig economy jobs. But that isn't their fault - the economy is fucked. There aren't the jobs to support them, and I guarantee most people would rather earn more than £18k a year and be in far more fulfilling jobs.

I work with people in poverty and benefits claimants - I believe I'm far more qualified and knowledgeable than you to tell you what it's really like.

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 13:05

they have to work @Candydreamer. The govt makes them when their child turns 3 and doesn't fund more than 2 children. It also ensures the benefit cap doesn't cover their costs, that the childcare element is stuck at 2003 levels and the amount that they receive isn't enough to live on.

Oh and to add insult to injury they are stuck in low paid jobs that barely feed their families.

And if you're disabled or have a disabled child? What do you think life is like then?

Candydreamer · 13/08/2021 13:10

@HelenHywater yes I know you have to meet certain commitments to continue receiving benefits, I'm just saying that its not hard to see why some dont have the incentive to go out and look for themselves/give up time with their children when they are younger when the wages are so shockingly low.

Candydreamer · 13/08/2021 13:11

and I am not looking at this from a position of privilege, trust me. we get 120 a month in universal credits and I dont feel bad about it at all. if cost of living vs wages wasnt so shit we wouldnt have to claim at all. we both work full time jobs.

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 13:14

Yes @Candydreamer - but they don't have much choice because they get sanctioned once their child is 3. It is shit I agree -there's no choice really.

fwiw I don't think the vast majority of people who claim UC are privileged or taking the piss. A very high proportion of UC claimants are actually working. Rishi Sunak always forgets to mention that when he's spouting his shit. (as do the Daily Mail).

Iloveginger · 13/08/2021 13:29

@HelenHywater

But *@Iloveginger* they can't do nothing. They have to work. Most UC claimants work. Albeit in shit, low paid, gig economy jobs. But that isn't their fault - the economy is fucked. There aren't the jobs to support them, and I guarantee most people would rather earn more than £18k a year and be in far more fulfilling jobs.

I work with people in poverty and benefits claimants - I believe I'm far more qualified and knowledgeable than you to tell you what it's really like.

But there's also a proportion of them that don't (members of my own wider family included) that do ok. If the economy is fucked then it fucked for ordinary working class people too. Who are imo allowed to feel resentful at the fact that there is little incentive to work and 'be a good citizen' when it pays to sit on your arse.
IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 13/08/2021 13:41

A very high proportion of UC claimants are actually working

How many where all the adults in the household work full time so 37 hours plus? I’d imagine many have one adult not working, a single adult just doing the minimum hours needed etc.

pretty irrelevant when it comes to the sums though. why would people choose to work if they are better off on benefits

That’s the point though it shouldn’t be a choice or an option. Certainly not when others are funding it.

Candydreamer · 13/08/2021 14:46

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss me and my partner both work full time jobs and everyone I know who is claiming and are entitled to even a small amount like we are, are also working. wages are just crap.

obviously, not everyone but there are commitments you have to meet in order to get them. that's not to say noone plays the system, you will always get those who try, but a lot of people claim simply to make ends meet.

it wouldnt be a choice if the cost of living matched the average wage though would it. most people are just trying to get by - I know me and my partner are. and as full time workers we pay into the system so I feel no shame whatsoever in benefitting from it.

worriedatthemoment · 13/08/2021 16:05

@HealthKick2021 I know pkenty with over 3's who don't work and child benefit isn't capped and its onky capped at 2 from a certain date so people knew that was happening so could stick to 2 children

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 16:11

@IceCreamAndCandyfloss

A very high proportion of UC claimants are actually working

How many where all the adults in the household work full time so 37 hours plus? I’d imagine many have one adult not working, a single adult just doing the minimum hours needed etc.

pretty irrelevant when it comes to the sums though. why would people choose to work if they are better off on benefits

That’s the point though it shouldn’t be a choice or an option. Certainly not when others are funding it.

It doesn't pay to work full time - the childcare costs are barely covered at all (as I said, the amount paid is stuck at 2003 levels) and it is simply unaffordable to work full time. This isn't because people are workshy losers. It's because childcare costs are high, salaries are low and UC isn't enough to meaningfully help working parents.

We have some of the highest childcare costs in the world. The lowest benefit rates and we force working parents back to work sooner than other countries. It is the system and the economy that is fucked, not workshy, benefits cheats parents.

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 16:12

You all just believe the tory propaganda and the tory press. It's all bullshit.

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 16:13

but @Iloveginger yes, it's fucked for all working parents/people. But it's the govt you should all be angry at. Not benefits claimants. I can assure you it's harder for them. You're all directing your anger and envy at the wrong people.

lannistunut · 13/08/2021 16:15

If the economy is fucked then it fucked for ordinary working class people too. Who are imo allowed to feel resentful at the fact that there is little incentive to work and 'be a good citizen' when it pays to sit on your arse.

Again I say if you think it 'pays to sit on your arse' why are you not doing this? You must be a fool if you are not availing yourself of this marvellous life opportunity.

The argument rings so hollow. Yes there are people not working and not dying of starvation. But do you really envy their lives? I don't think many do, it is just an easy thing to moan about when people feel miserable about thier own life. But if you do envy them, there is nothing stopping you from doing the same.

worriedatthemoment · 13/08/2021 16:42

@minatrina your very condescending its not that small amount ans my education is fine , just because I don't totally agree with you doesn't make me stupid
Its not just about fraud and any amount matters if taking from people who need it.
The post was more about how 2 full time working people can't afford to have a 2 bed home and 2 kids which isn't exactly wanting the world, and can understand why op may think not fair that 2 able people not working can have all that ?

worriedatthemoment · 13/08/2021 16:43

@HelenHywater thats a lazy answer many of is can think and see for ourselves
And labour benefits was a joke at times please don't assume those that don't agree are stupid

worriedatthemoment · 13/08/2021 16:45

@lannistunut well there kind of is if like the op you own your own house as your mortgage wouldn't get paid and then if homeless from that its considered intentional
What the issue is if its so bad why do many who have been claiming for years continue to have more children, my neighbour as 8 , neither her or her husband have worked since prob number 3

minatrina · 13/08/2021 16:46

[quote worriedatthemoment]@minatrina your very condescending its not that small amount ans my education is fine , just because I don't totally agree with you doesn't make me stupid
Its not just about fraud and any amount matters if taking from people who need it.
The post was more about how 2 full time working people can't afford to have a 2 bed home and 2 kids which isn't exactly wanting the world, and can understand why op may think not fair that 2 able people not working can have all that ? [/quote]
It's not because you don't agree with me, it's because you don't understand how research and academia works.

I don't mind being condescending to people who are using their ignorance to spread misinformation that results in negativity and bitterness to people who are in need.

lannistunut · 13/08/2021 16:51

[quote worriedatthemoment]@lannistunut well there kind of is if like the op you own your own house as your mortgage wouldn't get paid and then if homeless from that its considered intentional
What the issue is if its so bad why do many who have been claiming for years continue to have more children, my neighbour as 8 , neither her or her husband have worked since prob number 3 [/quote]
So there is nothing to be jealous of is there - the OP owns her own home which is presumably BETTER than becoming homeless and getting assigned social housing...

lannistunut · 13/08/2021 16:53

It is not considered intentional if you become homeless due to being unable to pay the mortgage. You simply have to get fired for underperformance rather than resign. It is all very simple, they get benefits very easily of course, and live the life of riley... Hmm

worriedatthemoment · 13/08/2021 17:02

@lannistunut but they might not get social housing for one ot much help
At alll as owning own home and loosing it can be classed as intentionally making yourself homeless

worriedatthemoment · 13/08/2021 17:03

@lannistunut do you work for dwp ? Have you claimed benefits of know those who have and those who have lost their home and not been housed ? As i do

HelenHywater · 13/08/2021 17:04

[quote worriedatthemoment]@HelenHywater thats a lazy answer many of is can think and see for ourselves
And labour benefits was a joke at times please don't assume those that don't agree are stupid [/quote]
But you're just wrong @worriedatthemoment . Like others here, I have read and understand the research. Where's your evidence? Actual evidence, not anecdotal about the man next door to your aunty who has 5 children by 3 different mothers.