That it's not fair!?

[StompingMyFeet]

I've NC for this because I'm aware I'll sound like a Daily Mail article in my rant. I'm just so (irrationally) hurt and upset right now.

We own a 1 bed flat. We do ok, but there's basically no way we'll ever be anywhere bigger even though we both work.We have a DD already , but for the past 3 years I've desperately wanted another baby. There's no room, money would be tricky, childcare , going back to work , OH is getting quite old etc. Plus the impact on DD by having less .. attention,time,space etc. So I know it's a know, I try to make my peace with it and forget about it. Sometimes it just fucking hurts though, so much so that it becomes physical.

Today I saw one of our old neighbours who got moved last year (council) into a two bed. She had DS with her and a baby. While we were chatting she casually said "oh this is what happens when you get a two bedroom" and laughed. I kinda hated her a little bit then, smiled ,fussed over the baby again , said my goodbyes and walked away in tears.

This is the DM part, they don't work , mid twenties , barely good enough parents . It just feels so fucking unfair that I have to consider all the risks and cons and disadvantages because there is no safety net, and tell myself no. I don't begrudge them benefits,or the flat or whatever.. I know they need it and in a way we're a million times more fortunate. But fucking hell, I do begrudge them that baby.

I'll get over it, but today I just want to cry and stamp my feet and rant and shout It's not fair!

@ChameleonKola

YANBU to feel the way you do.

But your daughter has such a massive advantage here compared to those other kids. You may have to bear the brunt of the pain at not having a second, but your DD will benefit so much from having parents who carefully considered having her, who are level headed and sensible, who take responsibility for themselves and provide for themselves. Those attributes will rub off on her and influence the way she behaves and what she does in this world as an adult. I don’t blame you for being envious that they get to have a second baby and you don’t, but in truth the quality of life you can provide to your solo child will be so much better. Better to do a good job of it once rather than a crappy job of it twice, right?

FWIW I think everyone should think like you do. Unfortunately not everyone does, and the state rightly steps in to help those children so they’re not at a disadvantage, it isn’t their fault and with the right support it can help to reduce generational poverty and ensure they have a chance of breaking the cycle. Maybe you can think of their council house as not for the benefit of the parents but for the children, innocent children. If you were like they were then you’d want the state to step in to and make sure your children were housed, when they’ve done absolutely nothing wrong.

I agree with all of this

Hi OP,
I don't think you have let on where you live or the value of your property but surely it must be one of the dearest parts of the country if your partner works in construction, you also work and yet you can't see yourself ever moving on from a one bed flat?

You were asked if you could move and said "Not really. OH is self employed (skilled construction)and needs to be where the work and money are". That response reads to me "yes we could move but don't really want to". There is construction work everywhere, as you know if your partner often drives 2 hours to work. Staying "where the money is" isn't working for you because housing is too dear. If you want to stay living in the area where you live that is your choice to make but a lot of people that wanted a family home would move to a cheaper area to get one. If you would prefer to live in a small property in a dearer area then that is a choice. I think taking ownership of that choice is actually helpful for your mindset. I doubt you have to live in a one bed flat - you prefer to remain in your current area and to do so you are willing to stay in a small property. Small property/dear area or bigger property/cheaper area is a choice made by many people. Lots of areas of the country where two people on minimum wage can get a house if they have the deposit to do so.

@minatrina no I don't think I am, I think you are selectively choosing personally

@Winter2020 thats assuming you can get work in those places , where are these places that 2 people on min wage can get a house and afford childcare assuming they want to move away from all family and friends
There was a council house programme on not so long ago where in order to get a flat people were being asked to move 100 miles away and leave jobs and family, And people were in uproar how this is so wrong and rightly so ,

@Winter2020 min wage x 2 is £35000 not many places in the country you can nut a 2 bed with a mortgage on that amount especially self employed as thats always a little harder as well and generally you have to have a job in area to get the mortgage

@Winter2020

Hi OP, I don't think you have let on where you live or the value of your property but surely it must be one of the dearest parts of the country if your partner works in construction, you also work and yet you can't see yourself ever moving on from a one bed flat?

You were asked if you could move and said "Not really. OH is self employed (skilled construction)and needs to be where the work and money are". That response reads to me "yes we could move but don't really want to". There is construction work everywhere, as you know if your partner often drives 2 hours to work. Staying "where the money is" isn't working for you because housing is too dear. If you want to stay living in the area where you live that is your choice to make but a lot of people that wanted a family home would move to a cheaper area to get one. If you would prefer to live in a small property in a dearer area then that is a choice. I think taking ownership of that choice is actually helpful for your mindset. I doubt you have to live in a one bed flat - you prefer to remain in your current area and to do so you are willing to stay in a small property. Small property/dear area or bigger property/cheaper area is a choice made by many people. Lots of areas of the country where two people on minimum wage can get a house if they have the deposit to do so.

I'm trying not to put too many identifying details that's why I didn't mention the area. I live in the "suburb" of a town,not even a city. Very deprived area actually hence the quotation marks around suburb ,and when you search it on the first page there are a few links from "how it is to live here" type of websites. It was all we could afford when we did move from expensive area.

You're right though, it is becoming ridiculously expensive due to a huge influx of affordable homes. Affordable my ass , a tiny two bed flat(no garden, paid for parking, very small open plan kitchen right into the living room )starts at 320 k.

As for OH, he is in construction,but it's a skilled thing , think stonemason rather than general stuff , so he can't go on just any site/job. Where we are makes it more manageable for him , but even so sometimes he works away for weeks on end ,paying rent .We still have some debt , the pandemic didn't help, and life happens sometimes. Two years ago the boiler and washing machine broke in the Christmas holidays. That was fun. Last year his car blew up at a job, and he needed another one for work as quickly as possible. I try to scrimp and save , but stuff like that always sets us back.

Nobody's fault of course, it just sucks.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@minatrina no I don't think I am, I think you are selectively choosing personally[/quote]
Selectively choosing what exactly? A lot of your points have been either incoherent or the same thing that I've already responded to regurgitated, and I thought it unkind to point out. But let's go back over it all if you like.

I said that research clearly shows that the number of fraudulent benefits claims are not particularly high, and a great deal more money is lost to the public purse via tax evasion.

You countered by saying you think the research is wrong because of your personal anecdotal experience. You claimed that the research can only be based on the numbers of claimants that are actually caught.

I pointed out that your average Joe's anecdotal data does not bear any weight whatsoever against peer reviewed research. You seemed to take umbrage at this, but ultimately weren't able to say anything compelling. I pointed out that the research is not just based on the numbers of fraudulent claims which are caught. Different researchers have analysed the topic in different ways to come up with their best estimates. All of this is available on google.

You made a point that it's unfair that people living on minimum wage struggle too. I said that instead of punishing benefit claimants, surely the answer to this problem is to tackle the fact that minimum wage is not enough to live on. You said this isn't possible and parroted some boring right wing line about how businesses would struggle which showed a lack of understanding on the topic. I didn't go into it other than point out it's not that simple because it's not what this thread is about, but this line of thinking is easily debunk-able - I encourage you to do your own research on this as there is plenty of information and well-researched arguments out there. You're welcome to still disagree with me on the minimum wage issue, but at least do it with sound economic arguments in mind. Even if they are rooted in cruelty and right wing greed.

(I also still didn't get an answer on my last point about punishing benefit claimants. You don't think we should raise the minimum wage, so your answer to people struggling on minimum wage is... punish other people so they have it worse?)

And finally you seemed to repeatedly get hung up on the idea that I was claiming benefit fraud does not exist. I quite obviously never or suggested said that. I said that you were harping on about fictional fraudulent benefit claimants because you were saying you thought the research was wrong and your anecdata proved there was more fraudulent benefits claimants than the experts think. I think that's quite clearly nonsense, and these extra benefits claimants (as in, above the rate estimates by researchers) are fictional. That doesn't mean you're lying about meeting a fraudulent claimer, it means you're using that experience to imagine whole hoards of fraudulent claimers that don't exist. I think this is quite easy to understand. You also admitted you'd not even looked at the research you're so convinced is inaccurate.

That's all I can remember off the top of my head, and I'm not going to scroll back through the thread. Let me know if I missed anything!

@minatrina please go away you have twisted it all around and don't patronise me and tell me you tried to be kind. You called me thick , I stopped taking any notice of you then

@minatrina you have taken things out of context what I said as that suits you to do so, its a fact many small business struggle with raising minimum wage without putting up goods as there is little profit as it is , I know that as I have had a business also and know small business holders now and in some industries the margins are small
I never said there were loads fraudulently claiming I said it happens you were the one who said the data doesn't support that ? As though it didn't happen at all
Please don't tell me I need to educate myself as I diaagree with you , raising minimum wage has benefits but also drawbacks and isn't a quick fix like people think

[quote worriedatthemoment]@minatrina you have taken things out of context what I said as that suits you to do so, its a fact many small business struggle with raising minimum wage without putting up goods as there is little profit as it is , I know that as I have had a business also and know small business holders now and in some industries the margins are small
I never said there were loads fraudulently claiming I said it happens you were the one who said the data doesn't support that ? As though it didn't happen at all
Please don't tell me I need to educate myself as I diaagree with you , raising minimum wage has benefits but also drawbacks and isn't a quick fix like people think [/quote]
If you're margins are too small to pay employees a wage they can actually live on then your business model isn't very good. That's life! These are also the same sorry excuses everyone peddled out when the minimum wage was introduced in the first place.

@minatrina mmm tell that to lots of business barely making ends meet as it is then actually closing and employing no one , people will only pay so much for say a coffee or a sandwich and with overheads like rent and business rates being very high , a big increase in minimim wage is hard for small business some owners aren't even taking mnimum wage themselves but then hey thats ok because those business all shut down and people loose there jobs, if you have been on minimum wage uou know that it makes little difference when it goes up, as all your bills go up more.
Don't knock peoples business models as some have very small margins with good reason, you really think the likes of tesco put up wages and then don't put up the food to cover it v??

@worriedatthemoment I make the same point again, if your business can't run profitably whilst paying people a liveable wage then you need to reassess your business. If your business goes bust as a result of governments ensuring workers are paid enough to live on then too bad

@minatrina please go away you have no idea obviously , small business struggle due to many things and when minimum wage goes up it causes issues when other bills are also high, a business going under is no good to anyone and the. People loose jobs , its not as simple as tough luck, and not as simple as just raising min wage and then everyone lives comfortably , stop being goody and maybe look outside your own little world , real people and real feelings involved , get a life

*goady

@worriedatthemoment it's being goady to have more sympathy for people on benefits than businesses who can't or won't pay their employees a living wage? 🤣

I think it's you who needs to enter the real world, this is just how business works. No one has a god-given right to own a business. If your business isn't profitable enough to pay employees whatever the government du jour designate as the minimum wage, then unfortunately your business can't function.

@minatrina I don't have a business just understand the real world and how small businesses also struggle especially at the moment and see the bigger picture , unlike yourself who thinks only your opinion is correct and thats all it is an opinion, there are arguments for and against min wage , prob lots of data for you to google if you want to see both sides

@worriedatthemoment I did not think you owned a business, I was using "you" in the generic sense.

I'm a management accountant, I have a working knowledge of business at the very least thank you - but yes, I totally advocate further reading into the subject. That's exactly what I recommended earlier in our conversation, as you appeared to think your opinion of minimum wage increase was gospel (in your own words; "minimum wage going up won't help , im not too thick to understand that")