That it's not fair!?

[StompingMyFeet]

I've NC for this because I'm aware I'll sound like a Daily Mail article in my rant. I'm just so (irrationally) hurt and upset right now.

We own a 1 bed flat. We do ok, but there's basically no way we'll ever be anywhere bigger even though we both work.We have a DD already , but for the past 3 years I've desperately wanted another baby. There's no room, money would be tricky, childcare , going back to work , OH is getting quite old etc. Plus the impact on DD by having less .. attention,time,space etc. So I know it's a know, I try to make my peace with it and forget about it. Sometimes it just fucking hurts though, so much so that it becomes physical.

Today I saw one of our old neighbours who got moved last year (council) into a two bed. She had DS with her and a baby. While we were chatting she casually said "oh this is what happens when you get a two bedroom" and laughed. I kinda hated her a little bit then, smiled ,fussed over the baby again , said my goodbyes and walked away in tears.

This is the DM part, they don't work , mid twenties , barely good enough parents . It just feels so fucking unfair that I have to consider all the risks and cons and disadvantages because there is no safety net, and tell myself no. I don't begrudge them benefits,or the flat or whatever.. I know they need it and in a way we're a million times more fortunate. But fucking hell, I do begrudge them that baby.

I'll get over it, but today I just want to cry and stamp my feet and rant and shout It's not fair!

@lannistunut

I think of where Britain was post-war and the aspirations then to invest to create a better society through investment in housing, compared to all the petty jealousy and hatred there is now.

I don't fully understand what has happened to make people so bitter and ignorant, but the views about benefit claimants and benefit fraud people hold are not supported by any research done.

Absolutely.

And there are several people on this thread asserting that their ~personal experience~ should somehow be held as equal to the findings of actual research. I'm increasingly finding (especially amongst Gen X and older) that your average Joe thinks their opinion is worth the same as the opinion of actual experts who have done research and dedicated their career to a particular topic.

Data on benefit fraud is irrelevant because it only records fraud that has been identified and confirmed, not the fraud that takes place unindentified.

My friend used to work for the DWP. She said that it was well known that there was quite a bit of fraud taking place, they did receive so much reports, but they just didn't have the resources to investigate it, so they prioritised the cases where they knew it would take little work to evidence, and where there where the fraud was higher value to justify the investment.

That's why data shows that the highest fraud is housing benefit. It's much easier to evidence and the highest value.

She said that the highest estimate fraud is with CA, with people not providing anywhere 35h of care above what would be expected. This however is not worth the investment to investigate. Low value and almost impossible to evidence.

Some data.

@lannistunut

I think of where Britain was post-war and the aspirations then to invest to create a better society through investment in housing, compared to all the petty jealousy and hatred there is now.

I don't fully understand what has happened to make people so bitter and ignorant, but the views about benefit claimants and benefit fraud people hold are not supported by any research done.

This.

I know nothing will change your narrow little minds but the reality is NOTHING like you are all spouting.

I have felt the same as you, we had to move to a cheaper area miles away and start over.

You're being extremely unreasonable tbh. You're clearly not happy with the decision not to have another child. That's not their fault and your resentment is quite nasty. You're not a better parent for espousing some of the reasons listed such as giving your child more attention (an attack on all people with more than 1 child and I only have 1 myself). Either come to terms with your choice or change it. It's not fair to be so envious you start a thread that's designed to pull all the anti-benefits sneerers to the yard.

@Alltheprettyseahorses

You're being extremely unreasonable tbh. You're clearly not happy with the decision not to have another child. That's not their fault and your resentment is quite nasty. You're not a better parent for espousing some of the reasons listed such as giving your child more attention (an attack on all people with more than 1 child and I only have 1 myself). Either come to terms with your choice or change it. It's not fair to be so envious you start a thread that's designed to pull all the anti-benefits sneerers to the yard.

Yes I know. When I'm able to think logically and reasonably I agree with the majority of posters on this thread. I wasn't in that place when I posted. I was hurt and upset with a huge dollop of jealousy and envy. I posted on MN because it often helps me process things when I'm off balance.

The tories have really played a blinder getting everyone to kick down haven't they?

Yep!

I don't fully understand what has happened to make people so bitter and ignorant, but the views about benefit claimants and benefit fraud people hold are not supported by any research done.

Well researched by Channel 5 shows like 'Benefits Street' and Fat Immigrants on Benefits though.
I wonder why they don't make programmes about super rich tax dodgers on their yachts will their employees are so poor they visit food banks to feed their children? Oh, and claim top up benefits to bridge the gaps.

You're being extremely unreasonable tbh. You're clearly not happy with the decision not to have another child. That's not their fault and your resentment is quite nasty.

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable.
I don't think she's been nasty about this other couple either. She's jealous because her neighbour has another child and she dearly wants another herself be feels circumstances don't allow.

I don't think the OP is being unreasonable because two working people being able to afford a two bed home and two children in 21st century Britain is about as far from an unreasonable expectation as I think you can get imo. She's not stamping her foot because she can't have a Ferrari and a trip to the Maldives.

Hugs OP, its shit.

Much more money is lost due to tax evasion - perhaps we should be focusing our anger at the other end of the spectrum?

But we were all told by the higher-ups that this evasion was fine because the wealth will trickle down. Who could have predicted that instead of trickling down, those fuckers would use that wealth to buy space rockets instead...?

She said that the highest estimate fraud is with CA, with people not providing anywhere 35h of care above what would be expected. This however is not worth the investment to investigate. Low value and almost impossible to evidence.

The evidence for Carers Allowance is done as part of the DLA/PIP application as it is based on the care needs of the person you are caring for and these are assessed as part of that.

The carers unit also do their own checks on your income, etc even you make your claim to them and if you are qorking/studying you have to send additional evidence (e.g., course details showing the hours of study, pay slips, etc).

@lannistunut
You need to study a bit more history if you imagine the post war era was full of generosity and goodwill towards the disadvantaged just because of the legislation that was passed.

[quote toconclude]@lannistunut
You need to study a bit more history if you imagine the post war era was full of generosity and goodwill towards the disadvantaged just because of the legislation that was passed.[/quote]
Yes, I know it wasn't all peace and harmony but I just despair of how many nasty bastards there are about today.

@StompingMyFeet

It's fine to be jealous or envy people. We all do it. It's just how we manage it. For me it would be a split second thought. Because I'm me, I'm not that person our lives are different.

I'm sure you know how theses threads turn out . Even people claiming mobility or disability. A disability or illness that they have no control over something they have to live with for all their live weather It's them or their child. And as usual they are getting a hard time . Because of thresds like this. Them people must feel awful reading threads like this

@minatrina research is only what is uncovered over the years I have known lots of people claim benefits not entitled, none have been caught, I also know some who especially years back knew how to play the system, same family in same circumstances and one would know how to claim more than the other, I know of people now claiming for things they shouldn't , none have got caught so won't be in the research, but when you live surrounded by people then you know it happens and its frustrating as I also know those on benefits doing it right who really struggle, or those on low incomes barely getting by.
The op is not wrong for feeling upset that she cannot have another child despite working , yet a neighbour who can work doesn't and has been moved to a larger property and have a second child, she wasn't nasty to the person , just upset with the situation
There are lots on genuine people on benefits but also a small few who abuse the system which then means less for those that need it.
Its not living in the real world if you think this does not exist it then makes it a stigma for the genuine ones, no one should be better off on benefits than working if they can and thats where the system is sometimes wrong
Same as large familes being paid for 11 children or so is a choice, near me is. 6 bed council house you have to have minimum of about 9 children to get it , how many people working can afford that , very very few. That house would make a great house for a foster carer or someone like that

@worriedatthemoment no, not all of the research is just based on who is 'caught'. Again, you're just spouting stuff based on your own personal experience. I don't understand why people can't grasp the well-established limitations of anecdotal "data".

@vivainsomnia

Data on benefit fraud is irrelevant because it only records fraud that has been identified and confirmed, not the fraud that takes place unindentified.

My friend used to work for the DWP. She said that it was well known that there was quite a bit of fraud taking place, they did receive so much reports, but they just didn't have the resources to investigate it, so they prioritised the cases where they knew it would take little work to evidence, and where there where the fraud was higher value to justify the investment.

That's why data shows that the highest fraud is housing benefit. It's much easier to evidence and the highest value.

She said that the highest estimate fraud is with CA, with people not providing anywhere 35h of care above what would be expected. This however is not worth the investment to investigate. Low value and almost impossible to evidence.

No, that's not the only data or research we have on this topic, despite what your mate down the DWP might tell you.

Academic research on this topic is a mere Google away!

@minatrina i can't understand why people can't accept it happens and data can be manipulated in many ways
I can say what I have seen and know in real life as thats real true life experience , that many in middle class england have not experienced. Are you saying it never happens? And its not all about cost its about how it then causes stigma for those that are genuine of which there are obviously many more

@minatrina academic research is not the be all and end all and research shows just a small amount of what goes on
How can you estimate how much fraud happens of many is undetected ?
Data can only be drawn by whats available, why is your data so superior to other peoples real life experiences ? What because an academic produced it so they must be right over many of us , who live this life day in day out

@minitrina I'm confused as to why you think I'm denying the existence of benefit fraud. At no point did I say or even suggest that it doesn't happen. I clearly stated that in my opinion it's a small enough percentage that it's not worth worrying about compared to much other pressing issues. I think that's easy enough to understand.

"Data can be manipulated" yes, that's kind of the point of data? You read the research, you look at the raw data provided, you read what the researchers have done with the data and how they obtained the data, and then you can evaluate how much you agree with the researchers' conclusions based on the data and the research methods used.

But no! You have no need to do this because you've come across some people in your time that you have deemed unworthy of state support, and your anecdata is apparently above scrutiny.

What's sad is that a surprising number of people think this way. It's an indictment of our education system imo.

I think what I find the most dismaying is the fact that two full time employed adults, like myself and my partner, can just about afford the sky high rent we pay on a small two bed house.

I feel absolutely zero shame in the measley 120 pound top up we get extra a month in Universal credits, a top up we do only get because we have 2 children and our rent is so high.

You want to direct your anger anywhere, direct at whoever is responsible for living costs going up so much over the last 20 years but wages not matching it. Sometimes, those on benefits end up better off than those working, and sometimes I do think well can I blame them? It's not a huge incentive to work is it, especially when you have children and often childcare costs eclipse what you earn anyway.

[quote worriedatthemoment]@minatrina academic research is not the be all and end all and research shows just a small amount of what goes on
How can you estimate how much fraud happens of many is undetected ?
Data can only be drawn by whats available, why is your data so superior to other peoples real life experiences ? What because an academic produced it so they must be right over many of us , who live this life day in day out
[/quote]
If you're asking me if I think researchers are more intelligent and have a better perspective on their field than you or I, my answer would be yes.

I'm actually shocked that I've been asked to explain why peer reviewed data is more valid than personal anecdotes 😭 cba

Yes we fucked up. Massively. I know. I have the guilt and shame of that to deal with as well. We lost nearly everything and at some point we ended up in a room in a house share above a pub riddled with bed bugs and mice and getting more and more in debt. Buying this flat was amazing (we have already moved further away) , and we felt very grateful and lucky. I still do most days.

I'm guessing there is a huge back story to how you have ended up in a 1 bed in your current situation?

UC isn't available when you have a mortgage....presumably you had good enough credit to get a mortgage on this flat so one wonders why you didn't just decide to rent and then you'd be eligible for UC?

It’s shit.

The problem isn’t that people on benefits are paid too much, but working people are paid too little.
Working should be something to inspire to, you should be significantly better off.

I hate it when people say oh you’ll be better off working in 10 years than being on benefits, but if you are on the bones of your arse just now it makes no difference.