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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Employer asked staff not to work from abroad

259 replies

Cosmos123 · 08/08/2021 08:24

A memo came out with new wfh strategy.
Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients.
Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office.
Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.
Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

OP posts:
alltheemptyfields · 08/08/2021 16:29

sorry but I find these articles so patronising and infuriating:

difficult for women to speak up in virtual meetings
Hmm

First, it’s crucial to avoid eclipsing women’s perspective by speaking on their behalf.
ahem, thanks?! Confused but that's speaking on women's behalf and treating us like children or second class citizens?

The whole thing would be funny if it wasn't hurting my teeth so much.

GCAcademic · 08/08/2021 16:32

I would argue that it's much easier for women to speak up in virtual meetings. Everyone puts their virtual hand up and waits their turn till the Chair gets to them. No more talking over people. Anyone who tries this can be muted. I prefer it.

BrightYellowDaffodil · 08/08/2021 17:05

@alltheemptyfields

I agree. I’ll admit to only reading the first article but I never understand why these articles are written as if women are passive and entirely without agency. Women have a choice to go to the office as much as men do, or to be as engaged as a man when working from home, or speak up in a meeting as a man would. It’s a choice. I’m a woman, and I’ve never encountered any of the issues the article references.

furstivetreats · 08/08/2021 17:35

It's completely fair to disagree with me and the articles but I shared my opinion and backed it up. I hope I'm wrong, I've no desire to see women do any worse in the workplace (and I kind of feel like I need to underline this; what I think might happen and what I want to happen are most certainly not the same thing) but I'm interested to know why women have so much free choice and agency when it comes to wfh - do they have the same free choice and agency when not wfh?

Brainwave89 · 08/08/2021 17:50

Yes, some people moved to family boltholes in France Tuscany and other locations and have been working quite happily (with great broadband) from there ever since. From a tax perspective this could get quite difficult. If you are working from say Italy, technically you should be paying Italian tax, and this is not only a problem for the individual, but also there employer. That being said, with a quick use of VPN, no one would really know [or in practice care that much?], so good luck to them all... and if I had the foresight I might have joined in.

IcedPurple · 08/08/2021 17:57

@Brainwave89

Yes, some people moved to family boltholes in France Tuscany and other locations and have been working quite happily (with great broadband) from there ever since. From a tax perspective this could get quite difficult. If you are working from say Italy, technically you should be paying Italian tax, and this is not only a problem for the individual, but also there employer. That being said, with a quick use of VPN, no one would really know [or in practice care that much?], so good luck to them all... and if I had the foresight I might have joined in.
I think it's very risky to suggest someone use a VPN to deceive their employers - and by implication, HMRC and the authorities of the country you are resident in.

And I doubt that your employers wouldn't 'care that much'. I would say actively taking steps to work under false pretences could potentially be a sackable offence.

Lockdownbear · 08/08/2021 18:17

The other issue is people tax dodging in other countries. Effectively working without having a visa.

Think about it if it was the other way round, say French people working for a French company in the UK, using a French bank account, UK doesn't know what they are up to, what happens if they take ill, holiday insurance isnt going to cover the bills, NHS shouldn't foot it either, how are they getting back to France?

NothingIsWrong · 08/08/2021 18:25

@Brainwave89

Yes, some people moved to family boltholes in France Tuscany and other locations and have been working quite happily (with great broadband) from there ever since. From a tax perspective this could get quite difficult. If you are working from say Italy, technically you should be paying Italian tax, and this is not only a problem for the individual, but also there employer. That being said, with a quick use of VPN, no one would really know [or in practice care that much?], so good luck to them all... and if I had the foresight I might have joined in.
It would be gross misconduct with immediate dismissal if I was found to be working abroad, and pretty easy to find out if someone called me on the phone. The ring tones are distinctive.
SchrodingersImmigrant · 08/08/2021 18:30

[quote BrightYellowDaffodil]@alltheemptyfields

I agree. I’ll admit to only reading the first article but I never understand why these articles are written as if women are passive and entirely without agency. Women have a choice to go to the office as much as men do, or to be as engaged as a man when working from home, or speak up in a meeting as a man would. It’s a choice. I’m a woman, and I’ve never encountered any of the issues the article references.[/quote]
Agreed!

Hekatestorch · 08/08/2021 18:38

I have been out but, I find some attitudes towards employees really quite odd.

No one cancels a meeting because amazon is coming. If they have accepted a meeting, they do the meeting. At home. Or wherever they are working that day.

If Johnny has a last minute school concert, they would look at their diary and see if they could go.

The difference is, when you are fully office based you are expected to be at your desk at set times. So my admin team were in tbe office 8-4. If they weren't at their desks they would need to book time off. I was already hybrid anyway.

Now, the MD realises that actually they don't need to be at their desk 8-4. So has now allowed flexible working. Because as long as the job is done, the hours it's done doesn't matter. So if Sue wants to wfh because she has an amazing package coming, that's fine. If John wants to work 8-2, the go to a school event then work that night or extra hours each day for the rest of the week he can.

Also, some meetings can be rearranged. Because we are flexible. If some asks if we can bump a meeting by an hour and we can, we do. If we can't, we don't.

But I have probably 4 meetings a week, at most. I speak to my people on the phone or video chat all the time, but that's usually adhoc.

I changed a meeting last week because one man needed to pick his step son up from school. I had plenty of room to do it, so I did.

If a company can't offer flexible working, that's fair enough. Our MD didn't think we could . Turns out we can. So we do. We have been wfh for 18 months and flexible for 12. No issues managing it all.bevause everyone is a grown up.

The piss takers were piss takers in the office and as I kept on top of it the office, the piss takers don't work for me anymore. So I have a team of adults, that keep to their deadline and are productive. I don't care wether they work in the office or at home or a cafe as long as the follow security policy.

Obviously, the tax implications of working abroad would cause issues there but no ones requested that yet.

Brainwave89 · 08/08/2021 18:50

As I said from a tax perspective its complex..but I know quite a few people doing this where for the moment employers are turning a blind eye so far as the work gets done. I had one lady on a teams call tell me the Tuscan landscape was a backdrop she had found..until her partner came out of it with a drink!

BritWifeInUSA · 08/08/2021 18:53

I have worked from home permanently for many years, long before COVID. My job description is a remote worker job. Our company will allow you to work in any country that we have a presence, that gives us over 100 to choose from, but if you do move you will then be on the pay scale and under the working rights etc if the country you move to. I know someone who planned to move to Thailand from the US and expected to be living in Thailand with a US pay check. And I also heard about someone wanting to move to the US from one of the European offices but expected to keep her annual leave allowance and maternity leave allowance from her homeland.

BritWifeInUSA · 08/08/2021 18:58

@Lockdownbear

The other issue is people tax dodging in other countries. Effectively working without having a visa.

Think about it if it was the other way round, say French people working for a French company in the UK, using a French bank account, UK doesn't know what they are up to, what happens if they take ill, holiday insurance isnt going to cover the bills, NHS shouldn't foot it either, how are they getting back to France?

Why wouldn’t the NHS cover a French person living in the UK? Access to the NHS is based on residency, not contributions. British people living overseas, even ones still paying tax on the UK because they have investments if peppery there, cannot access the NHS but an unemployed French person who legally lives in the UK can.
JulesRimetStillGleaming · 08/08/2021 19:16

I work in the NHS. One of my colleagues is from an EU country and got stuck over there. Was WFH until it was discovered and he basically lost his job as he wasn't able to come back to the UK. Tax purposes apparently. He's got a new job now back in his home country.

Lockdownbear · 08/08/2021 19:33

Why wouldn’t the NHS cover a French person living in the UK? Access to the NHS is based on residency, not contributions. British people living overseas, even ones still paying tax on the UK because they have investments if peppery there, cannot access the NHS but an unemployed French person who legally lives in the UK can.

But would they be legally working and living in the UK if they were employed as living in France and paying Franch tax.
Rather than paying UK tax and national insurance tax.

IcedPurple · 08/08/2021 19:35

@Brainwave89

As I said from a tax perspective its complex..but I know quite a few people doing this where for the moment employers are turning a blind eye so far as the work gets done. I had one lady on a teams call tell me the Tuscan landscape was a backdrop she had found..until her partner came out of it with a drink!
They better hope nobody reports their 'blind eye turning', because they could be in serious trouble with HMRC. They are breaking the law by employing people in this way.
IcedPurple · 08/08/2021 19:39

@JulesRimetStillGleaming

I work in the NHS. One of my colleagues is from an EU country and got stuck over there. Was WFH until it was discovered and he basically lost his job as he wasn't able to come back to the UK. Tax purposes apparently. He's got a new job now back in his home country.
A friend of mine - British but living in a European country at the time - got a job in Britain a few months ago. New employees were told that they would have to be resident in GB even though it was being done remotely. My friend said that she'd still be in the other country for the first two weeks, but would then be back in Britain. At first the employers told her that was OK in a 'nod and a wink' sort of way, but then she got an email from HR saying it was a condition of her job that she had to be in the UK from day one.
EBearhug · 08/08/2021 19:48

I would argue that it's much easier for women to speak up in virtual meetings. Everyone puts their virtual hand up and waits their turn till the Chair gets to them. No more talking over people. Anyone who tries this can be muted

I think this is very dependent on how could the meeting chair is. Some of them are nothing like this competent at managing whichever video conferencing platform is in use.

Brainwave89 · 08/08/2021 19:51

As I noted, I do understand the tax implications. However, I do know a number of people who are currently doing this, and where employers are not concerned so long as the work gets done.

CarlottaValdez · 08/08/2021 19:54

As I noted, I do understand the tax implications. However, I do know a number of people who are currently doing this, and where employers are not concerned so long as the work gets done

The employers are idiots then, they should be concerned about tax fraud. I honestly wouldn’t work for such a reckless employer.

Aquafizzle · 08/08/2021 20:10

If your company doesnt have a registered presence in that country and you are working from there then, yea there are significant tax implications.

Whycangirlsbesonasty · 08/08/2021 20:16

Head of tax for a major multinational here. We have forked out £60k for sorting out the tax affairs of two employees who were working abroad without telling us. One Spain, one Greece. If any companies are turning a blind eye to this they are very stupid indeed!

IcedPurple · 08/08/2021 20:17

@Brainwave89

As I noted, I do understand the tax implications. However, I do know a number of people who are currently doing this, and where employers are not concerned so long as the work gets done.
Well, they should be concerned because they are in breach of the law.

It would only take one person with a grudge to alert HMRC and they are in deep shit.

Also, are you sure of the circumstances of all these companies and individuals who are so blase about this 'so long as the work gets done'? Are you sure the business doesn't have a legal presence in the country where the employee is resident? Or that the employee isn't working as a self-employed consultant, for example?

FinallyHere · 08/08/2021 20:26

The people I know who do this, including DH, have a contractor relationship with the company rather than employee relationship. The complexities are pretty well known so that it is entirely possible to have a contract which allows someone to live in one country and work for someone based in another country.

You do need an accountant and possibly legal advice which understands the actual situation. The person typically pays tax in the jurisdiction in which they live. As a contractor there is no danger of the contract giver being subject to corporation tax in the contract takers county of residence. VAT and other taxes etc will depend on the countries involved.

Doesn't necessarily save money compared to being employed and is probably only suitable for people who can be reasonably sure that they cannot easily be replaced at least in the short to medium term.

Increasingly common for design roles across many industries.

Jokie · 08/08/2021 20:30

@CarlottaValdez

The tax reasons are valid - we’ve had to make the same rule at my work. If we end up with a load of employees in the south of France (for example) we run the risk of being liable for french corporation tax.
We had similar but replace France with holiday homes in Spain.

It's a legitimate concern and isn't just corporation tax. If you've got a company car that's in another country etc. It's a really big minefield.

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