Employer asked staff not to work from abroad

[Cosmos123]

A memo came out with new wfh strategy.
Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients.
Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office.
Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.
Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

Are you a civil servant, OP? Understand some departments are bringing this in. Massive problem for partners of diplomats.

The tax authorities in Spain are much more stringent than any other EU country. If there is any country you don’t want to have people illegally working from home in its Spain. Scary stuff! That’s going to be so expensive to untangle!

What has irritated me throughout the pandemic is the travel sections of respectable broadsheet newspapers having nothing to write about so having endless articles extolling the virtues of working from home overseas, without once mentioning the minefield they are entering into. So irresponsible!

The tax authorities in Spain are much more stringent than any other EU country. If there is any country you don’t want to have people illegally working from home in its Spain. Scary stuff! That’s going to be so expensive to untangle!

Yes - ask Ronaldo or Messi.

What has irritated me throughout the pandemic is the travel sections of respectable broadsheet newspapers having nothing to write about so having endless articles extolling the virtues of working from home overseas, without once mentioning the minefield they are entering into. So irresponsible!

In fainrness, anyone who bases a major life decision on a puff piece in a newspaper is daft.And certain categories of workers - freelancers, contractors - can indeed work abroad quite easily. It's up to the individual to do the research before heading off to their villa on the costa without running it past their employer first.

We have never been allowed to work from home from another country. The reason is privacy. We are close to the US and they routinely searched cellphones and laptops. This was unacceptable due to the nature of our work.

I am sure some other employers may also be concerned about privacy etc.

Oddly enough I have worked for more than one employer which allows people to work from other countries. One was only based in the UK, but the other had various overseas branches which presumably makes it more straightforward. But they both made it work. I guess if you value your employee you will make it work and if you don't, you'll let them go in favour of a UK-based employee.

I know people (friends of friends ) who work at senior levels for a local authority in London (adult social care`and commissioning children's services) who are working from abroad and were planning to do so for the longer term. To be honest, and I'm not quite sure why, it does feel a bit odd. They claim that it is allowed within the guidance set down by their authority. I done really understand how it can work in practice/ if the impact upon local delivery has been properly assessed but they all seem to think its fine. If that is the case what is to stop employers simply hiring from abroad in the future? It all feels a little odd?

@igelkott2021

Oddly enough I have worked for more than one employer which allows people to work from other countries. One was only based in the UK, but the other had various overseas branches which presumably makes it more straightforward. But they both made it work. I guess if you value your employee you will make it work and if you don't, you'll let them go in favour of a UK-based employee.

Legislation around taxatinn, GDPR, health & safety and more besides, has little to do with how much you 'value' your employee.

I read an article today about how hotels are doing special midweek commuter deals for people that have to come to the city for meetings.

They're already getting booked up now everyone realises WFH isn't perm and they've moved 4 hours away and got a puppy.

I think there’s an argument that if your employer has made your home your workplace by stealth, you can choose to have that home anywhere you like (tax issues aside). Employers can’t have it both ways! Suddenly the home you thought was perfect isn’t big enough as two adults now need a home office? What’s the solution? Move to somewhere bigger, obviously further out so as not to bankrupt yourself. Employers should be paying extra to those working from home IMO.

And before anyone jumps on and talks about money saved on commuting etc, what about those of us who are not saving on commuting (walked/cycled to work) but now have a permanent office space in half of the living room? Yes, actually now living at work. I do resent the fact that I work to pay a mortgage, that then offers my employers so many square feet of real estate…

But would they be legally working and living in the UK if they were employed as living in France and paying Franch tax.
Rather than paying UK tax and national insurance tax.

Stranger things can happen and can be legit…

FWIW for many years I was legally working in the UK, living in France, paying French tax …and UK tax, and UK NI…but FWIW no NHS care whilst in the UK whilst working ( because of residency).

FWIW for many years I was legally working in the UK, living in France, paying French tax …andUK tax, and UK NI…but FWIW no NHS care whilst in the UK whilst working ( because of residency).

But that's splitting your work between countries and France was your place of prime residence and probably as part of the EU and freedom to work anywhere.

I'd assume it would be more difficult to do that now as the UK is no longer part of the EU.

It certainly seems like something that needs to be thought through before people do it.

But that's splitting your work between countries and France was your place of prime residence and probably as part of the EU and freedom to work anywhere. I'd assume it would be more difficult to do that now as the UK is no longer part of the EU.

I suspect you are right - splitting your work legitimately between the UK and an EU country would certainly be more difficult for those who haven’t already established residency in the EU.

What amazes me about people working in Spain and Italy in their holiday homes is that if they are a British passport holder since Brexit they have no legal right to do that without a visa, and the can only stay for 90/180 days. I work for an investment bank in the city with a lot of European employees so they have agreed that people can work up to 20 days in a European country a year BUT you have to inform HR and also prove you have the legal right to work there. A lot of these people will have more than tax issues to worry about if the overstay in the Schengen Area are the can be fined and banned when they do exit.

The tax, and more particularly social security contribution positions (esp. in France), if UK employees are working overseas can be horrifically complex (& expensive).

What amazes me about people working in Spain and Italy in their holiday homes is that if they are a British passport holder since Brexit they have no legal right to do that without a visa, and the can only stay for 90/180 days.

It’s early days in the policing of the 90/180 requirement and Covid has complicated matters but there are signs that it is now being more actively monitored..

As DerAlteMann says the tax and social charges can be eye watering in places like France, any income at all earned whilst in country, even if “just” working at a keyboard in your holiday home for a UK company should be declared to the local authorities and the penalties for non-declaration can be stiff to say the least.

Anyone planning on such an arrangement really needs to take professional advice.

You would think it's early days to police it, but since uk has already made news with detaining eu citizens, the countries might well just get on woth it.

It's idiotic to move abroad without proper research.

It's idiotic to move abroad without proper research.

It's also true that many people can and do now work across borders, perfectly legally and fulfilling their obligations in each territory. Pretty much each case can be different, so that finding out the specifics in order to make sure they are addressed is the way forward.

Any single employer is clearly free to make whatever rules they choose.

Those already having trouble recruiting specialist staff have found cross border working to be a useful way to attract and keep good people.

Yes, we both agree it's unacceptable. I'm not really sure what the point of the post is, sorry. I've been in work throughout myself as I'm not in a back office function

What does back office have to do with it? Do you really think its only back office functions who have been working remotely?

What I've found fascinating over the past year or so as our clients have jumped or been dragged into more digital working is that it does expose poor managers. I don't see that as a bad thing frankly.

Any single employer is clearly free to make whatever rules they choose.

Only within the laws of Britain and the country of the employee's residence, which can be very complex. They can't just make up 'rules' to suit themselves.

@EBearhug

I would argue that it's much easier for women to speak up in virtual meetings. Everyone puts their virtual hand up and waits their turn till the Chair gets to them. No more talking over people. Anyone who tries this can be muted

I think this is very dependent on how could the meeting chair is. Some of them are nothing like this competent at managing whichever video conferencing platform is in use.

Completely agree with this and tbh its not even about technical competence (can assign someone to manage that within the meeting).

Its core meeting management skills and the fact that so few people don't know the difference between running a meeting and having a group chat.

So, to answer your question- plenty of us are more than capable of doing what you’ve suggested. Unfortunately the workplace is full of people who couldn’t give a fuck how their selfishness impacts others and so why would they care about important meetings and the like? They only care for themselves. Without any rules they’d do less than they do right now

If the workplace is full of lazy Pauls in a country where employment protection is bare minimum then your problem is either:

• lousy management skills
• low pay
• both of the above.

Yes every workforce might have the odd lead swinger but I've never been to a client where this is genuinely true of the majority of the staff.

Legislation around taxation, GDPR, health & safety and more besides, has little to do with how much you 'value' your employee

Well clearly it does, because some employers make it work, and the same laws apply to everyone (other than a bit of sectoral regulation). For example, Ocado: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58143560

@C8H10N4O2

Yes, we both agree it's unacceptable. I'm not really sure what the point of the post is, sorry. I've been in work throughout myself as I'm not in a back office function

What does back office have to do with it? Do you really think its only back office functions who have been working remotely?

What I've found fascinating over the past year or so as our clients have jumped or been dragged into more digital working is that it does expose poor managers. I don't see that as a bad thing frankly.

@C8H10N4O2 yes, I can confidently tell you that in my company, the company I was posting about, which was abundantly clear in my original post, it is only back office functions working from home since it is utterly impossible for those of us on the front line to work from home. I'm not stupid enough to think that this is the same in all companies/industries but since I was posting specifically about my experience, in my company, in my industry, I didn't think it was necessary to discuss other experiences in other companies who are not in my industry. Do you really think that everyone can work from home?

Well clearly it does, because some employers make it work, and the same laws apply to everyone (other than a bit of sectoral regulation). For example, Ocado: www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58143560

That's for a maximum of one month per year though.