Employer asked staff not to work from abroad

[Cosmos123]

A memo came out with new wfh strategy.
Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients.
Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office.
Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.
Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

@MotorwayDiva

There are also security concerns, different laws around confidentiality etc. Some. Companies don't allow their IT eg phones to be taken out of the country in normal times.

I know DHs employer has said that work phones should not be taken abroad, doesn't affect us but DH has a colleague who he believes to be abroad at the moment.

The tax implications of staff working abroad can be massive so is absolutely understandable what your employer are saying. Every country is different as well so the administration, tax advice needed and cost can be absolutely horrendous if the employers just let anyone work anywhere.

Data protection laws are also involved and in financial services, regulators permission is required to process customer data off shore so would depend on what work is being done.

@alltheemptyfields

But the posts to which I and others have been responding are about employees getting to unilaterally 'declare' their schedule to fit around their Amazon deliveries and unspecified 'school things'. Which is taking the piss, big time.

you misunderstood I think

Organising your own schedule around private commitments has always been a thing, and affects no one.

It very much affects your colleagues and clints if people get to unilateraly 'declare' they won't be at work due to the 'private commitment' of an Amazon delivery. Would you be happy if you had scheduled a meeting in the office with Darren, only to be told the day before that he'd got a great 50% off deal on Bosch wireless headphones, so would have to be at home when the delivery man knocked?

And I didn't misunderstand at all. Look back at the posts I quoted. Someone used the word 'declare' and another specifically mentioned that employers need to be 'flexible' about accommodating people's Amazon deliveries.

@starfishmummy every time i called uk phone abroad ringing was different than if you call the phone when in uk. Should be easy to apot then

And I didn't misunderstand at all. Look back at the posts I quoted. Someone used the word 'declare' and another specifically mentioned that employers need to be 'flexible' about accommodating people's Amazon deliveries.

Actually they mentioned deliveries, you were the first to mention amazon. Just being bit picky, I know

I know a couple of people who have moved to northern cities from london, but both on the mainline for trains. We've been told we need to be on the office 40% of the time so they're looking at hotel stays for one night a week. We're in a commuter town with about an hour door to door and I think with hindsight we made the right decision to move here (pre pandemic) as we get the best of both worlds now. Working abroad is gross misconduct if you get found out, and rightly so!

I too selfishly hope people won’t all work long term from home. I’m hopelessly out priced and unable to rent or buy outside of London now because nothing is available. Lots of Londoners rented second homes or bought.

It means I’m struggling to even get a home even with funds in my account and a stable local job.

I get it was nice and a novelty for a while but it sucks for some of us. Rewind pre pandemic I could’ve had my handpick of country cottage rentals (long term) & could’ve bought a doer upper.

A couple of people combined a holiday with a couple of weeks working abroad so they could enjoy evenings after work and weekends away from home. They were open about this and Zoomed with their holiday home in the background (senior people who presumably sought permission). One was repatriated early due to sudden restrictions so missed out on part of the holiday time.

@Bubbletiers

I too selfishly hope people won’t all work long term from home. I’m hopelessly out priced and unable to rent or buy outside of London now because nothing is available. Lots of Londoners rented second homes or bought.

It means I’m struggling to even get a home even with funds in my account and a stable local job.

I get it was nice and a novelty for a while but it sucks for some of us. Rewind pre pandemic I could’ve had my handpick of country cottage rentals (long term) & could’ve bought a doer upper.

I have to say there have been plenty of threads where people outside of London always complain that noone cares about them, thst their property prices dont go up and there is little investment. That everything is London centric.

Now its shifting and prices are going up the complaining hasn't stopped its now switched to csnt wait for londonderry to go back so I can afford to buy, those londonders coming here pushing up prices

Cant win can they. Make your mind up what you want

It's not just londoners making house prices jump. Where I am rent and prices of apartments stagnated or even dropped, but houses risen as fast as Dracula woul out of his cofin if he smelled blood.
It's because people are looking for more space. While before they were happy in a city centre flat, after the lokdowns, many decided it's better to have won outside space. Also maybe a home office.

It's overal people move and change of priorities which made house prices jump, not just londoners moving, that's unfair on them.

Would you be happy if you had scheduled a meeting in the office with Darren, only to be told the day before that he'd got a great 50% off deal on Bosch wireless headphones, so would have to be at home when the delivery man knocked?

I cannot even begin to countenance a time when anyone would actually do that. If I want to be in for a delivery I would expect - and be expected - to arrange it around my existing diary commitments. To change something for personal reasons would be the exception rather than the rule.

Yes, there will always be people who take the piss, but it is up to good managers to manage and educate them in terms of what is acceptable.

In my line of work (I'm public sector at the moment but in the general area of my work) it's incredibly common to merge all sorts of working models- people are often based all over the place and with very niche skills that can't be replicated. Pre covid in my team we had 2x people on compressed with one wfh day (including the head of team), one commuting to London from Yorkshire and staying over 2 nights, one based fully at home overseas and one 4 days from home. Others mostly in but ad hoc home days. It's so easy to sort it out. Just agree a day when most people are generally around for all the team stuff, use a Teams invite as standard and behave like grown ups and show a bit of flexibility for big meetings and away days etc.

Totally understand that some jobs are much more difficult but if you don't trust your team to behave like adults you've got bigger problems.

Global corporate technology company, recruitment is now officially location blind.

Really good technical resources are very difficult to find, so the right people are welcome to be based wherever suits them.

It might not suit everyone, but it is entirely possible with the right will, with available resources and infrastructure.

@ElephantOfRisk

Data protection laws are also involved and in financial services, regulators permission is required to process customer data off shore so would depend on what work is being done.

This is very significant. Pre-COVID, when managers received requests to live and work overseas, we could not approve as our IP and our/customer data could not go offshore full-time.

Work trips were ok as there was an approval and cyber review process. Only hard exclusion was China, big no to work/personal computer/phone going - temp versions required.

@cinammonbuns

I’m most worried about the implications this will have on women with children who insist one flexibility to the point of disrupting business function. I cannot see many men declaring they will wfh because of a school thing and worry this will discourage hiring of women of child bearing age even more,

@cinammonbuns I agree with this. I do worry about the long term impact on women. I think there will still be schmoozing in the office, after hours drinks etc and those who can't do it because of commitments requiring them to wfh will suffer.

I don't, can't and wouldn't wfh but would absolutely add my voice to those saying part of the issue is the not knowing. We haven't been able to contact payroll or other back office functions by phone since March 2020 which is unacceptable. Yes, it's because of my company rather than wfh per se, but the end result is the same. If some long term decisions are made then hopefully either it will be a rota for people to be in the office so there is always someone on the phones, everyone back in the office all the time, or at least proper systems put in place to ensure we can actually get a prompt answer rather than waiting 4 or 5 days for an email.

@icedcoffees

Bit if they can, why not? Especially the school thing. Where possible if employers could accommodate people's lives more, not completely, but understand they have kids and lives outside work. Then give them a better balance, why not?

Because businesses are about making money, not accommodating school plays, Amazon deliveries and letting the builders in.

I mean, of course it would be nice if they could do those things, but they're under no obligation to and I do think some people have unrealistic expectations about those things.

Not all work is in 'businesses'. Many people work in services or institutions.

Also, many businesses work effectively - and make more money - by operating flexibly.

We are not all employed in Manchester mills any more!

I do worry about the long term impact on women. I think there will still be schmoozing in the office, after hours drinks etc and those who can't do it because of commitments requiring them to wfh will suffer.

again.. what difference does wfh makes? Presumably in your example the "women" rush home to deal with childcare, the after hours drink don't involve them anyway.

Ah well I’m actually leaving London full stop. I don’t think I’m “one of those”. A mere observation that perhaps I should’ve made the move a while back and how it’s impacted me.

It's certainly relevant in my industry I've had in the past several colleagues working in other countries. Many of whom were British trained (as the role requires UK specific qualifications) then relocated. Prior to Brexit this was fine. Our job has roles that can be delivered entirely online as long as there are some uk based staff to offset one or two tasks (which noone really minds and usually there are multitudes of uk based staff so in fairness it is a once or twice a year job for us) and actually the people that deliver well are hard to come by so its reasonable to assume your skillset is worth any inconvenience. I had heard of a few people who then moved to do this at varying points over the last year and a half but didn't consider Brexit.

I'm not in the know as to why this is an issue but I do know they have now been told similar. I am surprised people didn't check this before moving. Any I've heard of have moved to European countries so it seems a reasonable research bit to be done.

I find it slightly insane you wouldn't have this conversation with your employer well before moving and if they did surely this issue was discussed ? The only person I know who kept their job without having moved back was someone who has lived in Spain for about 5 years and is pretty much indispensable. Professionally she is definitely worth any form of change they need to make to accommodate her residency and in fairness they employed her on that basis.

Sorry don’t know how to reply direct to “dream state”

We haven't been able to contact payroll or other back office functions by phone since March 2020 which is unacceptable.

of course it's unacceptable.

Businesses (and my own employer) have been operating as normal since last .. April!

People have been on full pay, working as normal since the first lockdown. (many working a hell of a lot more efficiently, for various reasons).

@alltheemptyfields

We haven't been able to contact payroll or other back office functions by phone since March 2020 which is unacceptable.

of course it's unacceptable.

Businesses (and my own employer) have been operating as normal since last .. April!

People have been on full pay, working as normal since the first lockdown. (many working a hell of a lot more efficiently, for various reasons).

Yes, we both agree it's unacceptable. I'm not really sure what the point of the post is, sorry. I've been in work throughout myself as I'm not in a back office function.

Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.

YABU

Anyone who did this in the light of the last 18 months only is daft. Of course working from home for many will eventually end. There are many advantages to having people present in-person in a workplace.

Even if there is a hybrid form - a mix of remote and in-person working, people need to take responsibility for making decisions about where they live and where they work.

Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Yes that is so. It’s to do with “domicile “ for taxation purposes. Employers are very much within their rights to require employees to be domiciled in the UK. I think that there’s a maximum of 3 months abroad allowed each tax year.

@alltheemptyfields

I do worry about the long term impact on women. I think there will still be schmoozing in the office, after hours drinks etc and those who can't do it because of commitments requiring them to wfh will suffer.

again.. what difference does wfh makes? Presumably in your example the "women" rush home to deal with childcare, the after hours drink don't involve them anyway.

There are numerous articles about the issue, it's not something I came up with by myself.

hbr.org/2020/07/why-wfh-isnt-necessarily-good-for-women

www.businessbecause.com/news/insights/7539/working-from-home-impact-women