Employer asked staff not to work from abroad

[Cosmos123]

A memo came out with new wfh strategy.
Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients.
Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office.
Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.
Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

I know people who moved back home/to where their partner was living.

I know a couple of idiots who went on an ‘around the world’ trip, specifically to countries that didn’t have many restrictions in place and allowed them to escape this brainwashed society of sheep. Their words First ones to come back and start moaning about masks, isolations and whatnot. ‘We’ve done none of that in a year’. Well, congratulations.

I have a friend who had to move back home to help care for her parents who got very ill last year.

Tax and online security-wise, you wouldn’t normally be able to work in another country for months on end. Obviously companies were more lenient due to the circumstances, but now if you want to keep your job you need to get back pronto. Which seems fair enough to me - unless your initial job agreement allowed for working abroad.

The tax reasons are valid - we’ve had to make the same rule at my work. If we end up with a load of employees in the south of France (for example) we run the risk of being liable for french corporation tax.

Doesn't make sense what they are doing.

Are they moving to hybrid. Or is hybrid temporary?

Several directors of ours have worked abroad. One is working abroad all summer at his holiday home. To he fair, sounds like bliss.

I am not sure many people will have moved a whole country though.

I am not entirely convinced by all these people who moved hundreds of miles on the assumption wfh was permanent.

I think its far more likely that these people moved, are pretending they didn't realise, in the hope they can force wfh.

All the staff that moved to a hybrid model at ours, have had it confirmed as now part of their contract

Anyone who relocated hundreds of miles away without having permanent right to work from home was being somewhat daft.

@Cosmos123 I'm related to somebody who decided that on the first lockdown WFH meant working from a beach in a country they could still travel to at the time (remember travel restrictions came in quite late) - they eventually lost their job as they were caught out through their Instagram posts, they hadn't asked, just did what they thought they could get away with. Their employer was not impressed.

I agree. I think the stamp duty holiday made people make some haste decisions.
One individual moved 3 hours away thinking this will be a permanent set up.
I guess the other option would be to get another job locally or deal with time and cost of that commute.
The employers is not responsible for those choices made though.

@TeenMinusTests

Anyone who relocated hundreds of miles away without having permanent right to work from home was being somewhat daft.

This. A very stupid thing to do.

The hybrid model sounds entirely reasonable. Quite frankly an employee who has chosen to permanently relocate hundreds of miles away on the assumption they'll never need to set foot in the office again, hasn't made the smartest of moves.

There are many people who temporarily moved back with parents during lockdowns, and other people who lost their jobs or made carefully thought through decisions to change their lifestyle and move away into the country. Those are very different situations from an employee who has a job to return to. I hope (and expect) that many jobs will now operate a hybrid model where employees can work from home part of the time but its also entirely reasonable for their employer to expect them to be available for in-person work as needed

What is your AIBU?

I’m working remotely permanently – but I got a new job during it all, it’s in my contract, and it was a remote-first employer pre-covid. Do agree it would have been madness to make a major move before permanent working arrangements were agreed. I don’t even know of many companies that have decided their long-term strategy: in the last few months DP’s work has gone from “back in the autumn” to “back in 2022”, from “3 days a week in office minimum” to “it depends on your team/line manager” to “1 day a week in office but only if you need to” to “no blanket rule for staff, circumstances are different” (by far the wisest option imo).

@TeenMinusTests

Anyone who relocated hundreds of miles away without having permanent right to work from home was being somewhat daft.

Not somewhat daft, completely and downright stupid. I'm looking forward to all of the houses going back up for sale where I am because people now have to move back down to England because of their work. I doubt any of them will make money on their homes that they have to sell quick, I'd be offering them a lot less.

I know a couple of who have, but to rented.
Now want to make things more permanent, but both his and hers work have not confirmed business models going forward.
I cant think they are the only people like this.
There are also health implications in the mix.

I think there was so much hype about, everything will change, no more 5 days in the office, that employees bought into that. Some employers did too. But like everything, especially nowadays, things change, and employers can and do change their minds quite regularly.

Where I work, it has been quite common for academics who are not British to work from their home countries outside term time or during periods of research leave. It's being going on for years, but Brexit and Covid have brought this practice under increased scrutiny from the university as there are tax and insurance implications. So, yes, far from increased flexible working, they are now subject to much more scrutiny and firmer residence requirements.

One of our friends owns a second home in Italy and since the pandemic has been wfh there for about half the year. I wonder if that affects his tax or his employer’s.

Dh can only work from a permanent residential address, not holiday accommodation, and should be available for f2f meetings at 24 hours notice. Hybrid will probably mean 2 days min in office, not fixed days.

I know plenty of people now working overseas but all because they returned to elderly parents/partners for the pandemic. All still have their properties here, all plan to return. I don't think the news they should return will be a surprise to any of them

See out our work you could always relocate. We have offices all over, but you did need permission if you felt going to your normal office wouldn't be doable anymore. I can't grasp why people didn't seek permission.

It makes no sense to me that people moved their entire lives and it never entered their head 'what if we have to go back to the office'.

That's why I think the majority are talking bollocks and trying to force their employers hands.

Just about the only firm rule in our new WFH policy globally is that you can't live in a different country to the one you are employed in without permission due to the tax (and other) implications. We've had loads of people going to other countries for really extended periods so they can be in the same place as family, or rather than being on their own in an expensive city apartment.

I know people from my old work who were returning to their home country imminently anyway, and went a bit earlier due to the way things were looking like going. Due to the wfh situation, many of them were able to continue in post from abroad (including one guy who was doing online sessions at 2am or so from his bedroom at his parents house in Australia - sotto voce so as not to wake anyone up!!).

I'm no longer working there, but I know from ex-colleagues that this is no longer going to be permitted as (i) people expected to be in the workplace at least two days a week and (ii) tax implications.

It seems fairly standard - and if this is the situation, that the tax exception thingy has now been discontinued, it's obvious that it would be so.

From the very beginning I predicted a hybrid 2/3 days at home 2/3 in the office. Flexing to suit meetings, coaching younger staff, getting to know colleagues etc.

Why anyone thought moving was a good idea is beyond me. But I can totally get the tax implications of people working abroad too.

I know somebody who took his work computer with him to a holiday in the canaries in feb last year, and lived in Air B&Bs there until the summer. At which point his employer issued the work in the country you’re employed in guidance.

Last year at the height of the pandemic/lockdown there were quite a few articles along the lines of this one

www.euronews.com/travel/2021/06/20/meet-the-secret-nomads-whose-bosses-don-t-know-they-re-working-abroad

People who thought they had cleverly opted out of the boring U.K., pandemic restrictions and were working from beach huts around the world. I daresay a few are still at it but I expect the tax situation will catch up with them eventually even if their employers don't.

If someone chose to move hours away or even abroad without checking with the employer if this was permanent, then they are an absolute idiot. WFH was put in place for the pandemic, it has never been promised as permanent unless your employer has said this. We can't work abroad for tax reasons which is understandable.

Moving hundreds of miles away (assuming status quo at start of COVID would last forever) was a daft thing to do, and I won't even comment on those who moved abroad (there is such a thing as right to work, tax implications, etc., you know!) But I would wait and watch on how big companies (at least London based corporates as that is what I am familiar with) are headed on property strategies. Hybrid models mean employees need not be on company property for part of the week, but there are mixed guidance/ policies on what this means - do they have to be face to face with their own teams, just working from other company locations, etc. Some companies have already planned to offload their London based properties to save money. Part of this may be reinvested in other non London locations (less office rent, non-London salaries, wider recruitment pool) which may work out better for employees in the longer run (lower cost home locations, less commute vis a vis London) So I'd still wait and watch.. the current phase of hybrid working may be an upheaval for employees who have moved, but it is still very much experimental.

Yeah, I’ll struggle to feel bad for individuals who have moved hundreds of miles away based on WFH over Covid. It was clearly a temporary measure and while I’m sure many jobs will remain WFH, you need to check and get it in writing before you move to the opposite end/a different country.

It’s a very foolish, expensive mistake to make. Whether people like it or not, the vast majority of workplaces will want you in the office at least a couple of days a week. For every person who has found WFH easier and more productive, there’s the same amount, if not more, who have been much less effective and as a result, entirely remote working simply will not work.

I also do find it a bit entitled that a proportion of the workforce now feel that they’re “too good” for in person working, too. Plenty of people had to go to work throughout the many lockdowns. Before workplaces had adopted Covid measures and before there was a vaccine. If these people can continue to get up and go to work, I think the rest of us need to get a grip and get back to normal working life, too. Sure, keep a few WFH jobs especially for those with disabilities where the benefits hugely outweigh the old style of working, but for everyone else? It’s time to get prepared to get back to work, in the office, and back to normal.

We were always going to the hybrid model so I don't think anyone moved thinking that they would not need to be in the office. But moving an hour away to do a big commute 2 times a week is doable.

In fact pre lockdown they closed a location and offered staff redundancy (good package) or relocate to an office over an hour away to work from office at least 3 days a week but now it will be 2. Those people had the redundancy paused for the pandemic as they all wfh and I think more people are staying as the long commute twice a week is more palatable.