Employer asked staff not to work from abroad

[Cosmos123]

A memo came out with new wfh strategy.
Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients.
Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office.
Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.
Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

We have had people move, one 200 miles away but we do have some staff located there but not his actual team. Others moved to other side of London and claim they are too elderly to travel to our office. It’s going to be an absolute nightmare as a management team to get people back in the office (50/50 too). It’s a joke. They think they can call the shots and will use the pandemic as an excuse for as long as they can

As well as tax, social security and NI implications there are also legal and insurance implication.
For example in the UK, employers liability insurance covers employees temporarily overseas. This isnt defined but would cover people on secondment etc. If someone became a resident overseas they are not there temporarily so would not be insured. If they are paid from the uk though and don't have a locally registered company overseas, they will not be able to purchase insurance locally for that employee. This has implications as a lot of countries (including the uk for example) require insurance for people living and working in the country. Companies try to get round this by buying personal accident insurance but that usually only covers death or catastrophic accidents, not things like being stressed or ill caused by work. So there is a cover gap. There are hundreds of scenarios like this which all vary by which country the employee is in, how long for, what currency they are paid in, etc etc etc. It would be a nightmare for companies if they had a lot of employees in lots of different countries. They would probably have to set up a lot of shell companies abroad to make sure they were fulfilling their tax and insurance obligations

@SquashMinus

I know people who have made some frankly insane property choices based on wfh which turned out to be temporary (we're being asked to return for 2-3 days a week). One traded their London flat for an absolutely gorgeous property in the wilds of Scotland, but is now facing a 10 hour commute. And the other sold up and moved to Vancouver, and was absolutely baffled when our employer a, wouldn't let him shift his working hours to local time, and b, said this broke the terms of his contract. Honestly, I have sympathy for people who just chose a slightly longer commute to get some more outdoor space, but there's definitely a limit!

Totally agree

On the “working abroad” front, we have some people who are doing it for short periods of time to extend holidays, see family etc but they have to have permission and the organisation for which I work is very conscious of tax rules.

DH has someone in his team who has done this. They are in an industry where there is 7 day working, so they do a 4 day on, 4 day off model. Said worker has moved 250 miles away from the office during the pandemic, and was on furlough for long periods during the last year. Worker has small children, and the 4 and 4 working pattern causes issues with childcare as they would need different days each week.

Employee now making a massive fuss about being asked to, you know, do their job.

DH’s firm are going with the hybrid model, but some staff have asked to be permanently in the office, so have been given designated desks and others have asked to permanently WFH. The remainder will probably be doing 2/3 days a week in the office, so will be hot desking.

They are looking at sub-letting some of their office space due to this model. Also assume most internal meetings across the offices will be virtual rather than face to face. Will save about £60k pa in mileage claims from employees, means less work time taken up travelling and better for the environment.

They think they can call the shots and will use the pandemic as an excuse for as long as they can

To be fair, most companies will have been using the pandemic to their advantage too.

If the employer thought they could gain something extra out of employees, they would. So I can see why employees would do the same.

Anyone who permanently moved hundreds of miles away from their office without guaranteed homeworking contract was a fool.

You can't just work from abroad, there are tax implications on the employing company even if they don't agree to you working abroad.

@MissyB1

One of our friends owns a second home in Italy and since the pandemic has been wfh there for about half the year. I wonder if that affects his tax or his employer’s.

For half the year, could well be both plus the complications of no longer being in the EU restricting time allowed (unless they have an EU passport).

We issued guidelines to staff quite early on this but we had the processes in place already as we can work anywhere. Most of the guidelines were based on the HMRC and third party taxation laws, client restrictions and then the capacity of our mobilisation office simply to process all the requests.

There has been a lot of focus on the benefits of hybrid working and being able to move further out of town, largely for the better paid. The counterpart of this is the number of employers "generously" usurping their employees' homes as free offices. Plenty of threads on here from families struggling for space where one partner's employer has done this. Employers are doing quite nicely out of this too. All our clients are saving money reducing office footprints.

Yep it will be tax implications - you even need different contracts for people working 100% from home vs hybrid. We’re already seeing people in the North taking remote roles for companies in London… recruiting in the North is nearly impossible at the moment as people are being offered roles so fast for companies they normally wouldn’t have bothered to apply to as it’s not in their region. It will be much cheaper paying for someone in the North vs London.

I’m surprised so many people want exclusive wfh arrangements as it won’t be long before companies think actually it’s cheaper to employ people in India, Poland etc. Than it is in the UK. Can’t understand why people aren’t worried about this more.

Oh and in DH's case, employees cannot work from home. Similar to something like manning the points on a railway or monitoring a power station. You have to physically be in work to do it.

I think there are tax implications for the employer if it's a permanent move abroad. We have people now working abroad who are (finally) visiting elderly parents - but they're just there for a couple of weeks.

@Cosmos123

We have been wfh in a hybrid model since 2010.

The 2 days in the office if you live more than 1.5hr commute each way takes it toll still as.many have found in the organisation.

So those who have moved further a field may not realise how exhausting that commute for 2 days a week can be. The cost also.

That was a fairly standard commute for many of my colleagues in the city pre-pandemic though.

Many of us are now in the opposite situation that we haven’t moved but the company has closed several offices so they are now much further away from us. As a result we largely can wfh and in certain other countries as well if we prefer.

We are not allowed to work abroad at all, but apart from the tax implications, our IT equipment is not allowed out of the country for security reasons.

Disclaimer I am no IT bod, so I have no idea if this is a thing or not! But it's what my boss told me

I’m surprised so many people want exclusive wfh arrangements as it won’t be long before companies think actually it’s cheaper to employ people in India, Poland etc. Than it is in the UK. Can’t understand why people aren’t worried about this more

Because that already happened 20 yrs ago and the pattern is already in place. Nearshoring, offshoring and farshoring work already have their place in many industries. Most large companies in London either have their own offices in the regions or outsource work to companies in the regions. Perhaps the difference is more small companies opting for virtual offices, however some will come a cropper as it takes good management to make it work.

How can you have any sympathy for people who chose to move 100s of miles away based on them being temporarily required to work from home due a global pandemic?

These people are idiots.

What happens if you have an IT problem and you work nowhere near work? DH had to take his laptop in last week to fix something and then stayed in work for the day whilst they were working on it.

I’m surprised so many people want exclusive wfh arrangements as it won’t be long before companies think actually it’s cheaper to employ people in India, Poland etc. Than it is in the UK. Can’t understand why people aren’t worried about this more.

I wouldnt want permanent wfh. However, not for this reason. A huge amount of jobs can't be just shipped abroad.

I have set up remote offices abroad, it's really not that simple. And actually, in the long run, doesn't really impact revenue. Ots very costly to set, and ends up with not much gain.

That's why alot of call centres (which are jobs that could go abroad) tend to go, then come back, then go again and then come back.

Because they often end up starting to lose money when customers decide to leave, due to the fact that they don't like call centres abroad. This one thing can really impact a customers decision on wether to stay or leave a company.

But I agree, people really need to think about wether their jobs are the ones that could go.

Many companies have IT helpdesks based somewhere different to their offices or outsourced. Many IT issues can be resolved remotely or equipment couriered.

I read today that Premier Inns, Novotels etc in central London are reporting a lot of interest for mid-week one/two night stays from businesspeople who now simply live too far away to commute conveniently. Shock, horror.

The working abroad thing... yes, it's nonsensical and people employed on British contracts for British companies who unilaterally decide to fuck off to Italy/Bali/wherever don't get any sympathy from me. But at the same time I can imagine individuals working for small organisations and doing this discreetly getting away with it for ages and ages. If you keep a home (address) in the UK and don't open an Italian bank account, register with an Italian GP etc, what are the chances of the Italian tax authorities cottoning on?

I’m surprised so many people want exclusive wfh arrangements as it won’t be long before companies think actually it’s cheaper to employ people in India, Poland etc.

There are a lot of reasons why that’s unlikely to happen. Tax implications is one, but cultural differences/not understanding British culture, lack of team cohesion, unpopularity with customers (overseas call centres being something most people don’t like, to the point that UK only call centres are a selling point).

I worked for a company that outsourced staff to India and it was an absolute disaster. Cost them a fortune to shift everything, then a bigger fortune to move things back AND fix the fuck ups.

Cheaper doesn’t mean better, and some companies want to provide a good service rather than a cheap one.

It gives company’s tax issues if employees work from abroad. That’s probably why they don’t want people doing it.

Same in my company plenty of silly people who moved up north are bow complaining about travelling hours and cost to come into the office. We're also moving to a 2 or 3 day per week model but let's be honest its based on collaborative working so in reality it could be more some weeks and less on others. Its not a fixed 2 or 3 days either but a guideline.

Then you also have those who got pets like dogs now worrying about dog walking costs, someone even asked if they could bring them to work. Wtf!

@TeenMinusTests

Anyone who relocated hundreds of miles away without having permanent right to work from home was being somewhat daft.

This!

But I don't agree with them saying it's a hybrid model but also saying people can be required to return to the office at any time with short notice.

It's one or the other and they should be clear and up front about it - you can't start a new employee saying it's hybrid/ flexible, and then a couple of months in say you want them in the office.

I think any approach is fine but they just need to be clear on it.

[quote MyriadeOfThings]@WillYouDoTheFandango would you be as jealous if it was a small mining village in the NE though?

They are just working and staying with family after all.[/quote]
If their remote mining village in the NE was basking in 30 degree sunshine and they had a pool I would be yes!

I know she’s working but she has the evenings and weekends by the pool and her parents are doing a lot of childcare as they’ve missed their grandchild. I don’t begrudge her btw. It’s been 2 years since she’s seen her family and I’m really happy for her.