Employer asked staff not to work from abroad

[Cosmos123]

A memo came out with new wfh strategy.
Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients.
Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office.
Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.
Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

@icedcoffees I completely understand. We are lucky that my partner is a director, albeit down the food chain as it's a multinational conglomerate. Also very specialised. If she was fired they would lose a whole department. It would take them years to find a replacement for her. She could also solo tomorrow if she wanted to. But her company have been amazing so far. They have started hybrid working and they are allowing all employee's to apply for WFH full-time come September. So, there shouldn't be a problem for us. But I do agree a lot of people we far too hasty in moving. Employers are going to have to a have a huge re-evaluation of how things work from here on in. Those who don't embrace WFH and Hybrid working are going to lose a hell of a lot of staff to companies who do.

@MadameOvary81 then you're very fortunate, but most people won't be in that kind of situation.

Those who don't embrace WFH and Hybrid working are going to lose a hell of a lot of staff to companies who do.

However I don't necessarily agree with this. Not everyone likes WFH and not everyone can sustain that lifestyle. WFH massively favours the wealthy as they're the ones who have study space, garden offices and who can't afford to build annexes and buy nice office equipment.

Many people have been working from their beds or crammed into a corner of the kitchen for 18+ months now. There have been numerous threads on here from people who are desperate for things to go back to normal and who can't wait to get back into the office.

I would also say that the people who love WFH and who rave about how good it is are the people above - who live in nice, spacious houses and who've saved thousands on season tickets each year as a result. But there have also been numerous threads on the other side - from managers who struggle to engage their team, from customers who are sick of dealing with workers who are working from home with screaming babies/barking dogs in the background etc.

WFH undoubtedly has it's benefits but I don't think it's always as amazing as some people try and make it out to be.

@MrsOvertonsWindow

I do wonder if there's a connection between wfh and the awful levels of customer service we're getting? Every organisation I speak to you there's endless layers of "do you really need to speak to us? Covid... " messages, repeated endlessly. Understandable in the middle of the pandemic but why have businesses not resolved this by now? Ages to get through to First Direct followed by inexplicable errors at their end - a bank with normally impeccable customer service. It seems routine that what would have been a 5 minute max phone call now turns into half an hour of listening to voicemail messages about they would rather you don't phone.

This is absolutely my experience. Noticeably down hill from banks, credit cards and insurance services.

I do have online and apps but they can take ages to log into and find basic information.

We were looking to move closer in to the city to cut dh commute just before the pandemic.

He works for a global company and does 6 am calls and 7 pm calls, travelling in / out in between these times on a not- massively-reliable train route.

We are waiting to see what the working pattern settles into for him, but if he gets 3 days or more WFH I'd personally like to move further out.

So glad we didn't move in as it would have meant going from mortgage free with a big enough house to a whopping mortgage for a teeny tiny place.

Those who don't embrace WFH and Hybrid working are going to lose a hell of a lot of staff to companies who do.

I agree

At the very least, people now expect flexibility, even if it's only to be allowed to WFH when they expect a delivery (instead of taking a day off), wfh when the kids have some school thing and work later, stay home when they come back from holiday or plan to go on holiday that evening...

There are very few people who genuinely expect to be in the office and that's it, never work elsewhere ever.

We are talking about businesses where it's possible, no one is discussion virtual surgeries or remote plane flying...

We have moved to agile working, with our company having closed our City office (we have smaller hub offices in other areas of London). It's fine, it works well and does allow us a lot of flexibility. We're also able to allow some of my team to go to see their families in Europe, and spend the time they need to quarantine there working - so they don't lose holiday over it.

I do question people who have moved a long way away though as they limit their choices in terms of moving jobs as well - the industry we work in is small (and almost exclusively based in large cities) so if they stop being happy at our company they're going to find it extremely hard to leave.

I don't know why people fail to see the link between companies allowing totally flexible re: country and taking the risk on corporation tax etc., and outsourcing those jobs to cheaper labour pools abroad.

To every person who says that their job is too specialised for that to happen to them, I urge them to think what the company would do if they resigned/went on mat leave/got sick. A company that is truly that dependent on named individuals is a high risk one.

On a personal note, I find that people are now questioning moves that on paper seemed to make sense during lockdown. Even doing a 4 hour round trip (if you count wait times, journey on each side) twice a week is a headache.

To every person who says that their job is too specialised for that to happen to them, I urge them to think what the company would do if they resigned/went on mat leave/got sick. A company that is truly that dependent on named individuals is a high risk one.

Exactly. Nobody is irreplaceable.

I don't know why people fail to see the link between companies allowing totally flexible re: country and taking the risk on corporation tax etc., and outsourcing those jobs to cheaper labour pools abroad.

because companies who have tried that in the past have already moved back, before the pandemic. that's why.

SOME staff can be used abroad, some really really cannot.

Some companies even had trouble with staff IN THE UK because of accent that was unacceptable to the client and had to impose a quota of native English speakers. (and not only UK, the companies I am talking about are in England, Greater London...)

Because you can still need to organise a week training once a year or so in this country, have people coming to meet once a month.

Working from home doesn't mean being in a cave and not seeing anyone ever again.

On the flip side, a lot of people actually don't want to work from home.

If I want to take my kids to something or need to stay home for some necessary, unreschedulable thing, I would book time off. If you're not working, it's not work time.

@MissyB1

One of our friends owns a second home in Italy and since the pandemic has been wfh there for about half the year. I wonder if that affects his tax or his employer’s.

Both.

a lot of people actually don't want to work from home

there are actually very few jobs where you can WFH anyway.
It's hardly going to be a revolution. It's only a handful of office workers who are resistant to change and the modern world. People reacted the same way with computers, with internet...

If I want to take my kids to something or need to stay home for some necessary, unreschedulable thing, I would book time off. If you're not working, it's not work time.
that's the point of FLEXIBLE time. If I had to go to the office, I'd have to book a day off. If I can just take the break I need and work around it, it's a normal day.

It's a stupid system if you have to treat staff like children and demand they are doing 9 to 6 on the dot (on roles where it's not needed, no one is expecting a teacher or store staff to turn up a 11am and work until 7pm instead...)
when it's a lot more productive and give a better quality of life to be treated like professional adults and give them flexibility.

Exactly. Nobody is irreplaceable
not even the ones who refuse to move with the time 🤷

Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away.

Relocating 'hundreds of miles away' due to an emergency situation is a pretty dumb move in fairness.

Unless their employer guaranteed them that they would never have to come back into the office again - and even then it's risky as companies go bust and people get made redunant and have to seek new jobs - then assuming they could WFH indefinitely was very presumptuous.

I’m a civil servant and no one is allowed to work from abroad. Which is fair enough!

I agree people who relocated because “oh we can work from home now” were stupid and short sighted. This was never intended to be forever - it’s a short term solution to a pandemic. Yes, maybe places will allow a few days from home - and a few may be permanently home working - but unless you were told taht specifically, no you don’t get to work your London / Birmingham/ Manchester job from Cornwall or the north of Scotland. And you want to keep your London weighting too, do you?

Our place of work put certain procedures in place to allow for wfh but they cost money. They’re not going to be in place forever just to allow wfh.

@icedcoffees

To every person who says that their job is too specialised for that to happen to them, I urge them to think what the company would do if they resigned/went on mat leave/got sick. A company that is truly that dependent on named individuals is a high risk one.

Exactly. Nobody is irreplaceable.

Actors, journalists, academics, musicians, consultants, artists, trainers, health practitioners, some sales (requiring contacts) are all types of role where individuals can not be easily replaced as they are the only ones who have that particular portfolio of talent/knowledge/experience/certification.

Not everyone works in a standard company or a standard role.

Of course if someone leaves they get replaced, but that doesn't mean it makes good business sense for key staff to leave as the disruption is not good for business. In some sectors, if you lose your one person who does x, it can be months before you can offer that specific service again.

[quote icedcoffees]@MadameOvary81 then you're very fortunate, but most people won't be in that kind of situation.

Those who don't embrace WFH and Hybrid working are going to lose a hell of a lot of staff to companies who do.

However I don't necessarily agree with this. Not everyone likes WFH and not everyone can sustain that lifestyle. WFH massively favours the wealthy as they're the ones who have study space, garden offices and who can't afford to build annexes and buy nice office equipment.

Many people have been working from their beds or crammed into a corner of the kitchen for 18+ months now. There have been numerous threads on here from people who are desperate for things to go back to normal and who can't wait to get back into the office.

I would also say that the people who love WFH and who rave about how good it is are the people above - who live in nice, spacious houses and who've saved thousands on season tickets each year as a result. But there have also been numerous threads on the other side - from managers who struggle to engage their team, from customers who are sick of dealing with workers who are working from home with screaming babies/barking dogs in the background etc.

WFH undoubtedly has it's benefits but I don't think it's always as amazing as some people try and make it out to be.[/quote]
I am aware of people refusing job offers after they found out company isn't sure about hybrid or olft office.

Ai agree with the previous statement. Many, many people welome hybri and it may become one of the reasons to pick particular company. People ahould be allowed office or hybrid working, inflexibility will cost companies good candidates whichever way they go.

In my field interestingly one employer has opted for more office time. A lot of staff are now looking for alternatives, as they want the wfh model most are going with. This will be a factor.

@alltheemptyfields

Exactly. Nobody is irreplaceable not even the ones who refuse to move with the time 🤷

WFH isn't necessarily "moving with the times" though. I see lots of people say that but they don't necessarily explain why it's such a forward way of doing things?

Yes, it's a great benefit to some people, but certainly not to everyone.

At the very least, people now expect flexibility, even if it's only to be allowed to WFH when they expect a delivery (instead of taking a day off), wfh when the kids have some school thing and work later, stay home when they come back from holiday or plan to go on holiday that evening...

I think if people expect the type of 'flexibility' that means employers have to accommodate everyone's Amazon deliveries, weekend breaks in Amsterdam, and little Johnny's 'school thing', they're going to be disappointed.

People ahould be allowed office or hybrid working, inflexibility will cost companies good candidates whichever way they go.

Absolutely. I’ve known of several people now who have rejected jobs because there’s no WFH/hybrid/flexible working. It’s been a long time coming - the “home working revolution” has been touted since the 90s but never quite happened - but now the companies that can offer it but choose not to will not be the ones people generally want to work for.

In addition, flexible working opens up the pool of potential employees for the employer - we are in the south and one of our new people is up north. In the fullness of time I believe they’re going to do a set number of days a month, which presumably means they’ll stay in a hotel or something (which has got to be good for hotels, since general business travel has reduced and will probably remain so). We’d only have had relatively local candidates previously.

People ahould be allowed office or hybrid working, inflexibility will cost companies good candidates whichever way they go.

All ways of working have their downsides. I don't think there are many industries where a culture of 100% WFH is a good idea, likewise where 100% office work is a good idea.

I do think most industries will go down the hybrid route, but moving 200+ miles away from your workplace when you don't have a contract that allows permanent WFH is daft whatever way you look at it.

@IcedPurple Why? Flexible working means I can start early/finish early or vice versa. Or take a chunk out of the middle of the day and finish work off in the evening. Or can stop work for 10 minutes for a delivery and carry on working around it, rather than having to take off the entire day. Our managers have made it clear that they don’t mind when work gets done, as long as it does. And it clearly does because it would be obvious after 18 months if it wasn’t.

Good employers trust their staff and allow a degree of autonomy and flexibility.

@Cosmos123

A memo came out with new wfh strategy. Basically they have informed staff that the hybrid model will be used where staff do not need to meet with clients. Also staff can be requested to return at short notice to the office. Not sure that is great news for those who have relocated hundreds of miles away. Also a brief note at the end that working permanently from abroad will not be allowed due to tax implications or summat.

Wonder who even moved abroad during the pandemic?
Anyways seems that Wfh remotely forever for those who wanted it won't be happening.

I think people that relocated miles away from the workplace are stupid. WFH was temporary guidance during a pandemic, not the green light to WFH on a permanent basis. Why did they think a temporary guidance was the green to WFH long-term/forever.

People were always going to have to go back to work, whether that be full time or hybrid. It's good that many companies have now embraced hybrid working.

Your company is correct re overseas working,their are tax complications with this.

I think if people expect the type of 'flexibility' that means employers have to accommodate everyone's Amazon deliveries, weekend breaks in Amsterdam, and little Johnny's 'school thing', they're going to be disappointed.

Bit if they can, why not? Especially the school thing. Where possible if employers could accommodate people's lives more, not completely, but understand they have kids and lives outside work. Then give them a better balance, why not?