Interrogated for planned absence

[MilkyButts]

I'm due to start my PGCE course in September and I emailed to say I needed two days off in mid November for a family wedding that has been rescheduled twice due to covid. I explained the situation and how it was important that I'm there and that I hoped it wasn't inappropriate to request the time off.

I received an email back from my teacher training provider assuring me it wasn't inappropriate but that they'd need some evidence to pass on to the University associated with the course.

I received an email a couple of days ago saying they've spoken to my course leader they want:

• to know why it's going to be two days and not one (we live in the south and the wedding is up north)
• whose wedding it is
• a booking confirmation for our accommodation
• to see the invite

I completely understand they want to check but this feels over the top to say this is a training course I'm paying for and not time off from a paid job.

I've let them know well in advance and I feel like what they're asking for is completely over the top!

Would you expect to be asked for evidence of every fine detail about a wedding you're going to or AIBU?

I've taught for well over a decade and have never had time off for anything other than personal / occasional child illness. It is extremely disruptive and expensive to a school for their staff to miss work and I just wouldn't even consider asking for 2 full days off for a wedding. Training providers have to sign you off that you are ready for the rigour of the role, and so your attendance is extremely important.

A few extreme examples I've witnessed in my time:

1. A member of SLT wanted to come in 1 hour late as she was driving back from her grandmother's funeral. She wouldn't have missed any of her lessons. Request denied.

1. An LSA had received permission to take a Friday off, to prepare for her own wedding. She got this permission 2 years in advance. New management came in and revoked that permission.

1. A member of staff wanted to take 1 hour on the morning of a training day off, in order to go straight to an appointment for a scan to see if she had lost her baby due to heavy bleeding (theoretically she had the time to go to work before the appointment). Request denied.

A member of staff wanted to take 1 hour on the morning of a training day off, in order to go straight to an appointment for a scan to see if she had lost her baby due to heavy bleeding (theoretically she had the time to go to work before the appointment). Request denied.

This would be classed as an emergency appointment in normal circumstances and should’ve allowed.
I am even more surprised that the school dared deny any pregnancy related appointment.

Ahh... but she could have gone to the appointment from work? The request was just one of convenience? I suppose they were within their rights to refuse then. Albeit Mean and unhelpful.

@TheSunShinesBrighter

A member of staff wanted to take 1 hour on the morning of a training day off, in order to go straight to an appointment for a scan to see if she had lost her baby due to heavy bleeding (theoretically she had the time to go to work before the appointment). Request denied.

This would be classed as an emergency appointment in normal circumstances and should’ve allowed.
I am even more surprised that the school dared deny any pregnancy related appointment.

Agree. This wouldn’t be a request for leave of absence- i.e known in advance. It would be an emergency medical that you’d call in an advise you were doing.

@Lollipity

I've taught for well over a decade and have never had time off for anything other than personal / occasional child illness. It is extremely disruptive and expensive to a school for their staff to miss work and I just wouldn't even consider asking for 2 full days off for a wedding. Training providers have to sign you off that you are ready for the rigour of the role, and so your attendance is extremely important.

A few extreme examples I've witnessed in my time:

1. A member of SLT wanted to come in 1 hour late as she was driving back from her grandmother's funeral. She wouldn't have missed any of her lessons. Request denied.

1. An LSA had received permission to take a Friday off, to prepare for her own wedding. She got this permission 2 years in advance. New management came in and revoked that permission.

1. A member of staff wanted to take 1 hour on the morning of a training day off, in order to go straight to an appointment for a scan to see if she had lost her baby due to heavy bleeding (theoretically she had the time to go to work before the appointment). Request denied.

I'm sure number 3 is illegal. You are allowed time off for pregnancy related appointments.

For those posters mentioning the Burgundy Book, unfortunately these rules only apply to community schools nowadays, not academies (unless staff are still under TUPE conditions) so pretty much irrelevant.

While it does sound like some schools are being unreasonable in their denial of time off, it is reasonable to check the legitimacy of the request as it is public funds they're dealing with (so different to the private sector or business world).

Academies don't have to adhere to the Burgundy Book but I have never encountered a multi-academy trust which does not mirror its contents almost exactly in its policies, the only exceptions being those which are a bit more generous.

I’m a teacher. Sounds ott because where I work now is pretty reasonable, but my previous school would’ve taken issue with it. Not that many flexible institutions left these days and many act as if they “own” you once you work for them. Good luck.

Sorry, to clarify example 3 - the teacher had permission to go to the scan, but had to go to work for an hour in the morning, to sit in the hall watching the INSET presentation before attending the appointment. Said teacher was in a real state for that hour and actually just spent their time crying in a classroom. Baby was fine in the end. Diagnosis was a low-lying placenta.

Surely the member of staff could have taken the day off sick? I can’t see a school having any way of disciplining her in those circumstances.

@Lollipity

Sorry, to clarify example 3 - the teacher had permission to go to the scan, but had to go to work for an hour in the morning, to sit in the hall watching the INSET presentation before attending the appointment. Said teacher was in a real state for that hour and actually just spent their time crying in a classroom. Baby was fine in the end. Diagnosis was a low-lying placenta.

I also agree that if she had a potential medical emergency which needed to be clarified with a scan she should have phoned in sick.

In a 22 year teaching career I have been allowed time off ONCE for a funeral. I have had time off in term time refused for weddings, christenings and funerals of any relative who is not immediate family. I have to book medical appointments for holiday time. And i've missed a wedding in holidaytime because of a residential.

Teaching is not flexible.

I'm not a teacher but we are not allowed to take any leave from the start of August until the end of October.

I just asked for some leave to attend a wedding which would necessitate me taking a Friday off and was refused.

I am also really pissed off at the inflexibility. YANBU.

@TheSunShinesBrighter agreed, and I think the older and more aware of your rights/ self-confident you become you would just plain refuse to come in. This was near the start of a teaching career and she just went along with what her Head Teacher told her.

[quote Lollipity]@TheSunShinesBrighter agreed, and I think the older and more aware of your rights/ self-confident you become you would just plain refuse to come in. This was near the start of a teaching career and she just went along with what her Head Teacher told her.[/quote]
This is the problem and young staff are easily trampled on.

@ThanksItHasPockets

Academies don't have to adhere to the Burgundy Book but I have never encountered a multi-academy trust which does not mirror its contents almost exactly in its policies, the only exceptions being those which are a bit more generous.

Agreed. I’ve worked in multiple. All align and add clarity and compassion to (often outdated) LA policies. I say outdated as one LA’s was 16 years’ old at the time! Also, I’ve never known a HT to write an absence /staff attendance policy!

Absolutely ridiculous. And it’s my profession.

And some schools wonder why some staff give the absolute minimum and have multiple ‘sick days’. A bit of give and take goes a long way with most decent people- I’m very lucky to have worked in such a place.

I'm a teacher and I know that my headteacher would never approve any wedding requests. My friend is getting married next April in term time and I won't even ask. If it was a close family member then maybe I would.
I felt bad for my lovely TA. The headteacher hates her for daring to ask to go part-time after having her second baby. The other day she went to ask for an unpaid day off for a funeral. The head held her hand up to say STOP and just said no. She did let her go but she had to provide a death certificate and the head rang her twice during the funeral.

@Dreamingofbeergardens

I'm a teacher and I know that my headteacher would never approve any wedding requests. My friend is getting married next April in term time and I won't even ask. If it was a close family member then maybe I would. I felt bad for my lovely TA. The headteacher hates her for daring to ask to go part-time after having her second baby. The other day she went to ask for an unpaid day off for a funeral. The head held her hand up to say STOP and just said no. She did let her go but she had to provide a death certificate and the head rang her twice during the funeral.

I wouldn't work there. Sounds like her attitude stinks. Holding your hand up to someone's face and saying no? I don't speak to children like that, let alone adults.

I totally agree teaching is inflexible but reading these posts some of you seriously need to find new schools. The heads I've worked for have given some give and take on these things. If you generally work hard and don't make these requests regularly they've been allowed.

Just wanted to add I’ve never been refused a day off for a funeral or wedding. It’s been unpaid but it’s always been granted as long as I let them know in advance.

Sorry just realised you didn't say holding hand up to her face. But still that's no way to talk to people

And some schools wonder why some staff give the absolute minimum and have multiple ‘sick days’. A bit of give and take goes a long way with most decent people- I’m very lucky to have worked in such a place.

I agree.

It’s probably why so many teachers struggle with their mental health and leave the profession.

Not unreasonable. You have to justify time off and for the first two years after qualifying. They are just covering all basis in case your attendance ends up being poor. If you only end up taking these two days off then it will be fine, if you end up taking lots of time off they could end up with a problem.

Considering it's a family commitment, the info they've asked for is grossly intrusive. You've been open and up-front. It's not like you're pulling a sickie. I dread to think what would be requested for a bereavement or for a hospital stay.

Maybe your contact doesn't know what the univ actually requires, so I'd get hold of the associated univ and explain the situation.