Interrogated for planned absence

[MilkyButts]

I'm due to start my PGCE course in September and I emailed to say I needed two days off in mid November for a family wedding that has been rescheduled twice due to covid. I explained the situation and how it was important that I'm there and that I hoped it wasn't inappropriate to request the time off.

I received an email back from my teacher training provider assuring me it wasn't inappropriate but that they'd need some evidence to pass on to the University associated with the course.

I received an email a couple of days ago saying they've spoken to my course leader they want:

• to know why it's going to be two days and not one (we live in the south and the wedding is up north)
• whose wedding it is
• a booking confirmation for our accommodation
• to see the invite

I completely understand they want to check but this feels over the top to say this is a training course I'm paying for and not time off from a paid job.

I've let them know well in advance and I feel like what they're asking for is completely over the top!

Would you expect to be asked for evidence of every fine detail about a wedding you're going to or AIBU?

@RingPiece

Unfortunately this is the norm in teaching. It's an extremely inflexible career. Thankfully, I no longer teach but I remember consoling a colleague whose mother had died. Her dad had died long ago and as an only child, she was in charge of organising absolutely every aspect of the funeral. She was only allowed the morning of the funeral off work and had to hand over the reigns to a friend for the afternoon whilst she went back to school to teach until the end of the day. The lack of compassion eventually broke her and she left.

She should have gone off sick for a fucking month. Fucking PAID. Thankfully I have never worked for such a nasty, heartless HT or SLT. That is absolutely disgusting.

Sorry about the swearing. 😡

@RingPiece

Unfortunately this is the norm in teaching. It's an extremely inflexible career. Thankfully, I no longer teach but I remember consoling a colleague whose mother had died. Her dad had died long ago and as an only child, she was in charge of organising absolutely every aspect of the funeral. She was only allowed the morning of the funeral off work and had to hand over the reigns to a friend for the afternoon whilst she went back to school to teach until the end of the day. The lack of compassion eventually broke her and she left.

I do this is quite rare, especially now a days with more concern over staff well being.

It demonstrates terrible leadership. What use would she be in the classroom that afternoon?

It demonstrates terrible leadership. What use would she be in the classroom that afternoon?

I agree.
Disgusting behaviour.

Whereas when my parents died I was given 2 weeks paid leave to betaken as and when needed, so a couple of days afterwards to sort out arrangements, 2 days for the funeral, one day on my dad's birthday as compassionate leave etc. I was just asked to give as much notice as possible so cover arrangements could be made.

Seriously? So if your sibling or spouse or child died you were only allowed a few hours for the funeral itself? This is a terrible way to treat people, I can only imagine how that school was run. How was the staff turn over? How was general well being? I've never heard of anything like that. Disgusting

Correct. You were expected to teach in the morning if the funeral was in the afternoon or return after a morning funeral. It was disgusting. It was an absolutely awful school and I lasted precisely one year there - it was my NQT year. I was looking for jobs by the February despite people telling me it would look bad if I only stayed in my NQT year for one year. Fuck that...

@spanieleyes

Whereas when my parents died I was given 2 weeks paid leave to betaken as and when needed, so a couple of days afterwards to sort out arrangements, 2 days for the funeral, one day on my dad's birthday as compassionate leave etc. I was just asked to give as much notice as possible so cover arrangements could be made.

Yes, this is typical of all the schools I have taught in.

None of them are academies I add. I wonder if this makes a difference.

sloutside
I hear stories like yours and feel so angry.
NOBODY should be put in a situation like this.

@TheSunShinesBrighter I think maybe it's more about the head rather than whether it's an academy. I've worked in three academies and no head teacher treated staff like this.

@sloutside you did the right thing leaving!

Nothing to do with academy status. I have worked predominantly in academies with a few years in a maintained school and there was no difference in either the application of the rights set out in the burgundy book or in the judgement exercised by school leaders for compassionate leave.

Would you expect to be asked for evidence of every fine detail about a wedding you're going to or AIBU?

It’s not that it’s a wedding as such. You’re asking for 2 days’ absence for something that is not illness/ medical or emergency personal circumstances. In my university department, we’d be a bit ho- hum about taking 2 days out of what is your learning/working week.

We ask for evidence of death certificates if a student claims “dead grandmother” for exam/assessment mitigation. It seems harsh but we need to know that mitigation, absences etc are genuine.

When I was training we had to make up any days we missed, eg for interviews etc

I hear stories like yours and feel so angry.
NOBODY should be put in a situation like this.

Yes and what pissed me off the most about this was the school priding itself on being one big happy family, Catholic school, we try to be like Jesus, we pray lots as a big happy family and we raise lots of money for Catholic charities working with people in Africa or South America and we treat our staff like shit. We bully people we don't like and we have inhuman attendance policies and the like.

I'm a practising Catholic by the way - just saying before I get accused of being anti-Catholic.

@sloutside

Seriously? So if your sibling or spouse or child died you were only allowed a few hours for the funeral itself? This is a terrible way to treat people, I can only imagine how that school was run. How was the staff turn over? How was general well being? I've never heard of anything like that. Disgusting

Correct. You were expected to teach in the morning if the funeral was in the afternoon or return after a morning funeral. It was disgusting. It was an absolutely awful school and I lasted precisely one year there - it was my NQT year. I was looking for jobs by the February despite people telling me it would look bad if I only stayed in my NQT year for one year. Fuck that...

Not true. There is bereavement leave for the death of a spouse or child. And in such cases it's highly likely that one's GP would extend that leave with a sickness note.

Not true. There is bereavement leave for the death of a spouse or child. And in such cases it's highly likely that one's GP would extend that leave with a sickness note.

In the school policy document the HT included spouse and child along with parent and sibling. I don't know what would have happened if the scenario actually arose. It did not, in the time I was there.
The HT was the most awful woman and just did what the hell she liked.

This is so outrageous it’s laughable. What makes it worse is it seemed to be accepted that this is just the way it is. Thank goodness I work for myself and have to deal with this BS

When I was a student I had to produce my grandma’s death certificate to prove I was at her funeral. Totally unnecessary to check up in this much detail.

@sloutside

Not true. There is bereavement leave for the death of a spouse or child. And in such cases it's highly likely that one's GP would extend that leave with a sickness note.

In the school policy document the HT included spouse and child along with parent and sibling. I don't know what would have happened if the scenario actually arose. It did not, in the time I was there.
The HT was the most awful woman and just did what the hell she liked.

She couldn't do what the hell she liked. The Burgundy Book sets out exactly what the minimum entitlement is for bereavement in the immediate family.

@AnnaBellaCruella

This is so outrageous it’s laughable. What makes it worse is it seemed to be accepted that this is just the way it is. Thank goodness I work for myself and have to deal with this BS

Those saying that this is just the way it is need to move schools. Being a teacher is difficult enough without having to put up with absolute arsehole HTs. I have worked with so many decent people. They exist. True, LOA may well be unpaid in many circumstances but it’s granted.

I did a PGCE in my late twenties and was bullied by my class teacher mentor on my last placement. She made my life a living hell to the point I had to be signed off by the GP with work related stress as I was just beside myself. I'd come from working in law to teaching so not exactly wet behind the ears or timid. I'd worked really hard and had passed all my other placements.

The university was awful, hounded me with phone calls despite me sending in my sick note and tried to bully me into returning to my placement. I was told I was selfish, made to come in for an interview to prove I was "ill" with the course leader where I was told I should be thinking of my class teacher mentor's feelings!
That just wouldn't happen in a normal workplace!

When I returned to finish off the course six months later (and still deeply affected) I was told by my tutor that I should "do something I was more appropriately qualified for, such as a job in care or bar work," and that "I'd never work in education." I decided that day I just couldn't do it anymore and none of the reward of teaching (which I loved) was worth the nastiness and bullying that I'd encountered.

I have a senior leadership role in education now, just not in a school. Biggest mistake of my life doing a PGCE. I wish I'd never done it as it set me back career wise and left me extra student debt.

I had a great group of friends on my PGCE, all left the profession within three years from qualifying. I could tell you equally as awful stories as to the things they experienced and the warped, distorted view of what is "professionalism," they encountered in the schools they taught it.

I wish you well OP. Hope your uni isn't the one I was at. RG and on south coast.

xx

She couldn't do what the hell she liked. The Burgundy Book sets out exactly what the minimum entitlement is for bereavement in the immediate family

As I said, in her policy on staff absence she said time off for funerals only for the funeral itself for parents, children, siblings, spouse.

Presumably if and when the scenario arose people could object and claim their rights in the burgundy book.

But as I said, already, twice, she had this written in her policy on staff absence. I am not making this shit up.

She would not give me my NQT time off - 10% reduction in timetable as it was then. I was expected to teach all the time. Taking this up with her, then with the NQT supervisor from the LA got me absolutely nowhere. Well it did get me somewhere - she decided that the NQT reduction in timetable should be used for professional development (fair enough, good point) but what she actually did was timetable me to teach a Year 2 class for 10% of the time while the Year 2 teacher taught mine.

UK teachers would be appalled at that miserly "10 paid sick days " a year.

Even newly qualified teachers get 25 (working days) on full sick pay, and 50 on half pay. By 4 years in, they are entitled to 100 sick days on full pay and 100 on half pay.

Weekends and school holidays are not counted as working days when calculating paid sick leave.

Indeed. Presumably @YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer is fortunate enough to work in a state and district which offers paid parental leave but they will no doubt be aware that the majority of teachers in US public school can only take twelve weeks of unpaid leave in the first year of their child’s life, in comparison with their UK colleagues’ entitlement for pretty decent occupational maternity leave after 26 weeks’ service.

It’s ridiculous, the fact that you’ve been upfront and given loads of notice should be “proof” enough that you’re taking the course seriously and not just asking this for frivolous reasons. If you didn’t care you’d have just called in sick.

Whilst there is a minimum attendance requirement (in usual times, suspended during COVID - frankly quite terrifying some of the underprepared student teachers my school “passed” with so little teaching experience, but I digress), it’s fairly generous and a couple of days won’t make a difference.

She couldn't do what the hell she liked. The Burgundy Book sets out exactly what the minimum entitlement is for bereavement in the immediate family.

The ‘burgundy book’ (national conditions of service for school teachers in England and Wales) is the rule book for pay and conditions you are correct.
However, many HT will use their fucking brain and show emotional intelligence when someone asks for LOA.
This is unpaid if it falls outside the rules.

If your child died you’d be on sick leave. There’s no way a teacher is going to be working the same day as their child’s funeral, nor would there be any GP who wouldn’t sign you off for this reason. The fact a HT made you think they had this power is completely crackers!