Interrogated for planned absence

[MilkyButts]

I'm due to start my PGCE course in September and I emailed to say I needed two days off in mid November for a family wedding that has been rescheduled twice due to covid. I explained the situation and how it was important that I'm there and that I hoped it wasn't inappropriate to request the time off.

I received an email back from my teacher training provider assuring me it wasn't inappropriate but that they'd need some evidence to pass on to the University associated with the course.

I received an email a couple of days ago saying they've spoken to my course leader they want:

• to know why it's going to be two days and not one (we live in the south and the wedding is up north)
• whose wedding it is
• a booking confirmation for our accommodation
• to see the invite

I completely understand they want to check but this feels over the top to say this is a training course I'm paying for and not time off from a paid job.

I've let them know well in advance and I feel like what they're asking for is completely over the top!

Would you expect to be asked for evidence of every fine detail about a wedding you're going to or AIBU?

@MilkyButts welcome to the world of teaching where everyone is treated like a child ;-)

I was given a formal reprimand in my first week for "cursing a photocopier" - in the main office - once, quietly, with only one other person present - the "Royal Intergalactic Overseer of Filling Photocopiers" - teachers were not allowed to put paper in the photocopier - you had to ask.

The second week, at my first meeting, I asked what someone meant when they kept saying "Curriculum" when I thought we were talking about the "timetable" - she was actually mixing the two words up - as the new member of staff I didn't know that she had always done this. She complained to a deputy after the meeting (one of many deputies at the school) - who I was summarily invited to meet - he was most apologetic, she shrieked to me "Don't you know who I am!?" I said "No - I've no idea - I've only been here a week - who are you?" - she stormed out and the deputy apologised. I came from 20+ years in industry writing software, designing electronics, managing project teams of up to 80 in 5 countries, blah blah blah - seriously - I found it the treatment of adult staff, professional people, diabolical and laughable. I'd had 9 jobs in 16 years at one point (contract software) and see all kinds of different management styles, structures, team working, etc and had seen some very good and some very poor management so it wasn't hard to work out where school management ranked by comparison.

I could add many more stories. You will have to learn to "suck it up" because this won't be the last time you get asked to do something that you are not comfortable with. Try not to take it to heart - you do have to successfully complete each of your placements and there is, from what I remember (2005), zero flexibility - all checkboxes have to be ticked. When my mother died (2007) I wasn't offered any time off bar half a day for the funeral. I was taken ill once, driving to work - came close so passing out that I ran the car up the kerb and burst a tyre. O.M.G - the trouble I had trying to get someone to approve my request to be allowed to make an appointment to see my GP.

It's got nothing to do with the fact it's teacher training per se vs any other course that has compulsory elements to it.

The reason they are asking for all the proof is presumably because they have experienced many students trying to pull the wool over their eyes. We, sadly, now have to ask to see obituaries when students claim a death in the family. The number of grandparents some students have who die is astonishing.

In one of my old schools and LSA was telling me she asked for permission for a few days off for her daughters wedding and was rejected. She handed in her notice. Lsas get paid peanuts and the school wouldn't even let her go to her daughters wedding! She was a really good LSA as well.

I suppose there is so much negative media on schools so schools have to be careful incase it ends up in papers.

You wouldn't get the time off if you were teaching. I don't think you should have requested the time off.

Sorry OP this is normal for a vocational course.

I studied a similar course as a mature student. I had to request an essay deadline extension because my father has a heart attack a few days before hand in and he wasn’t expected to survive.
The uni wouldn’t accept my father’s hospital discharge report as evidence and made me pay for a doctor’s report on the psychological impact upon me. My GP was furious and considered it a complete waste of her time.

@YesIReallyDoLikeRootBeer

This thread has been really eye opening for me. I work in a school in America and I'm shocked with what I read. In the District I work in (same as an LA) we receive 10 paid sick days each school year (Sept - June). If we dont use them they carry over (so I have well over 30 for next year before they even add the 10 more). We also get 3 paid personal days which they are not even ALLOWED to ask us what we are taking the day off for. There are also paid bereavement days (the amount of days depends on the relationship). I've never known anyone to not be given a day off for a funeral for anyone (example for a friend, so not listed under the paid bereavement days). I really feel bad for teachers in England.

I've actually never worked with anyone denied funeral requests before either.. but I know it does happen in some schools.

Our sick pay is actually really generous so we've got nothing to complain about there!

The issue here is it's two days. The distance isn't their problem. I attended my parents wedding in my NQT year. It was a 500 mile round trip, and I only took one day off. Same goes for my grandfathers funeral.

When you have a job, you will be expected to drive the night before, attend the ceremony, and then drive back. Why should they pay to cover you for the day after the wedding? Even if you took it unpaid, it's costing them money for cover.

Lots of HTs are flexible. I find it’s give and take with most reasonable heads. As long as you don’t take advantage and are flexible the other way round, eg Remembrance Sunday, summer fair, evening disco etc that are often ‘voluntary’.

Having said that, I know a school that refused someone’s request to go to their uncles funeral. Like anywhere though, you can choose who you want to work for.

In terms of teacher training, you’ll need a certain number of hours to qualify, so they’ll need to be careful how much time off is authorised.

It’s the 2 days that’s the issue.
My school wouldn’t allow me to have 2 days for a wedding as there’s only certain things you’re allowed time off for. Even funerals it’s immediate family only but as I’ve worked there a while they’re usually pretty good and we’ll often work things out between the staff.

The trouble with PGCEs is that they’re so intense that every day counts so they have to be careful that you are able to pass the course.

I had to provide evidence for an interview I went to including times etc, even though teaching interviews last all day and my mentor gave me a reference.

Once you're actually teaching, you defo won't be allowed any days off for family weddings. Family funerals maybe, if they deem the person to be "close enough", but be prepared to be offered either half a day paid or a whole day unpaid.

Oh, and don't expect to be allowed time off for routine medical or dental appts- these will all need to be arranged in school holidays. Even though it may be the wrong time of the month for a smear, or your GP might only open appts 2 weeks in advance and then they're all booked up within 4 minutes.

When you have a job, you will be expected to drive the night before, attend the ceremony, and then drive back.

I agree.
We went to a 3 day trip and wasn’t planned to arrive back at school until 12:00am but there was a delay and we didn’t get back to school until 3:00am and then I had to wait for the students to depart and drive all the way home abd I still had to be in school first thing to teach so I had about an hours sleep.

Sounds very intrusive. I completed my PGCE in 2017 and yes I had to complete a set number of mandatory hours but I well exceeded that before the end of my course, so 1 missed placement day is absolutely not a concern.

Uni admin here - standard practice on any type of 'professional' course, eg PGCE, nursing etc, whether or not you are paying for it.

@Poppitt58

Lots of HTs are flexible. I find it’s give and take with most reasonable heads. As long as you don’t take advantage and are flexible the other way round, eg Remembrance Sunday, summer fair, evening disco etc that are often ‘voluntary’.

Having said that, I know a school that refused someone’s request to go to their uncles funeral. Like anywhere though, you can choose who you want to work for.

In terms of teacher training, you’ll need a certain number of hours to qualify, so they’ll need to be careful how much time off is authorised.

I agree with this post, I think it's a fair description of most schools, but not all.

I think if I had a funeral request rejected I would look for a new job. I think most reasonable heads realise no one wants to be at a funeral, it means you've lost someone. I've actually never seen a head refuse a request (but I know it does happen in some schools). People were allowed to attend friends funerals not just family.
Obviously would be an issue if you were going to one a month!

As a medical student after the death of a family member which affected my exams they wanted evidence of the death certificate. I was fuming and said there was no way I was going to bother anyone for a copy of that. In the end they marked it as sick leave due to emotional distress.

That’s ridiculous OP.
I had 2 days unpaid LOA (I’m a teacher) for a family wedding during term time. It was also in a different part of the country.
I requested unpaid leave and was granted it. I wasn’t asked to supply ‘evidence’.

Their request is very OTT in my opinion.

Once you're actually teaching, you defo won't be allowed any days off for family weddings.

Not true.
They won’t pay you but many HT will grant unpaid LOA.

@Poppitt58

Lots of HTs are flexible. I find it’s give and take with most reasonable heads. As long as you don’t take advantage and are flexible the other way round, eg Remembrance Sunday, summer fair, evening disco etc that are often ‘voluntary’.

Having said that, I know a school that refused someone’s request to go to their uncles funeral. Like anywhere though, you can choose who you want to work for.

In terms of teacher training, you’ll need a certain number of hours to qualify, so they’ll need to be careful how much time off is authorised.

This.

Your relative should have had a Saturday wedding or did you not tell them?

*if they wanted you to go I meant to add.

Yes it's OTT. They should just have said no.

Pretty standard for teaching I'm afraid.

Reading some of the replies on here I am starting to think that in 25+ years of teaching I have been very lucky with my SLT/HTs.

@Its90minutestonight

Yes it's OTT. They should just have said no.

Why?

In my school they’d think you were taking the mick with two days!