AIBU to not want my son to do a class I can't observe?

[RainyNightInTallinn]

My DS4 is obsessed with martial arts. I found what appears to be a great Karate school which does classes for 3-12 year olds and looks really good. Only thing is they say parents can't observe the classes, not even the free trial class. They said it's to develop self-esteem and protect the privacy of all students.

Problem is, I feel uncomfortable just taking my shy 4-year-old along and sending him in along for an hour without me ever having met these teachers, not knowing this school, etc. These people are total strangers to me. AIBU? Am I being overprotective? I know we essentially do the same thing at normal school, but at school there are many adults, oversight, etc. at this karate school it's a couple who run it and teach groups of 4 kids at a time.

DD1 did ballet at that age and you aren’t allowed to watch. There are no windows or door with a window to look through either. Those you can watch you usually can peep through the windows only. It’s distracting for children if the parents stay around in the room. I think he is not old enough for classes like this if he can’t tell you what they have done in the class. FYI we quit the ballet after a term.

I think 4-12 is too large an age group anyway. 4-8 would be better and if course you should be able to watch.
DS went to a large karate school with parent seats around the edge of the mats.
The older kids parents didn't stay but the little ones all had someone there watching.

This is the norm round here in dance classes. It's not a question of reasonable/unreasonable - they are free to set their terms, and you decide whether to accept them or go elsewhere.

Personally we held off on this sort of class until I felt DC would be ok. But classes were bigger than 4 children. I think it's often just that it's awkward for teachers to "perform" in front of parents - try running a few parties when other parents just sit back and drink tea, it is quite exposing - and that it's harder to get DC to join in when they have the option of staying on a parent's lap. So nothing sinister IMO. However that is no reason to put him in a situation you're uncomfortable with.

Think of this like preparing for school. I think the jump feels big to you because he isn’t at school yet. It’s the transition between preschool and primary school activity classes.

Once they are older, they can tell you what they practice. Maybe it will be 7 or so before your boy is mature enough for independent classes. Don’t despair. They grow up quickly.

@couchparsnip

I think 4-12 is too large an age group anyway. 4-8 would be better and if course you should be able to watch. DS went to a large karate school with parent seats around the edge of the mats. The older kids parents didn't stay but the little ones all had someone there watching.

Sorry, what I meant is they teach 3-12 year olds so they're really a kids' martial arts school, which is nice. Many are adult gyms who teach a few kids too, but this one is more focussed on kids. But they are separated by age group, not 12 year olds at the same time as 4 year olds.

Sounds a bit off.

If he was even just 2 years older I would say you're being over the top, but 4 is still very young. I'd probably feel weird about it.

Not a chance, esp after reading this one … abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/taiwan-boy-dies-repeatedly-slammed-judo-class-78575230
Though I have no idea about the differences between them, I think it’s good safeguarding to be transparent so parents know what is happening.

Also based on this, what should I be looking for in a class then?

I’d be asking any club about the qualifications of their instructors, whether they use senior belts to supervise or train children and if so how they are supervised. Where I am instructors have to do annual child protection training, I’d also ask who their safeguarding officer is, how you go about raising concerns (not just about safeguarding but the class in general), if they have an identified first sided in every class given it’s a contact sport. I’d also look for membership of both a governing body and a safeguarding in sport organisation.

I’ve done martial arts to black belt level, the club was excellent and I’d have no hesitation in sending my kids unsupervised but I know all of those things are in place, I’d be much less likely to if they weren’t.

@LtDansleg

They do better alone than if their parents are watching. They listen to the teacher rather than look to their parents. My dc all attend martial arts and dance classes where I’m not allowed to watch, they all love them. There was one ballet class my dd went to when she was 3 where she said she didn’t want to go back because the teacher was shouty and she didn’t like her, so I didn’t take her back to that one. I’m a little shocked at some of these replies that if you’re not allowed to watch the classes then they must be abusing the kids 🙄

how do you know they are not for a start?

More importantly, some classes are frankly poor and I would want to judge by myself it it wasn't my own club.

And it's very weird not to be able to see at least the first few classes. There's nothing to hide, and it's not true it's a distraction.

Identified first aider I mean

@pleasedonttextmyman

Very wrong, it's not normal.

It's one thing to have a private gradings, but not allowing the parents for at the very least the trial session is not right.

You are also entitled to make your own mind on a specific karate class, there are good and bad, and it's up to you as parent to be able to judge how the classes are run.

It’s very normal in dance classes where there is no space for twenty parents to view.

The tots get to still have their parents, but Pre-primary which is 4 + they are expected to be left at the door. Especially during Covid. We might relax with the opening, but space wise we didn’t have much choice. Kids tend to engage better without parents anyway. Staying with the kids is usually about the parents not being ready and the kids tend to pick up on this.

That said, I’d want to see their certificates, teaching, dbs, and a review from an existing parent.

Talk to the other parents in the group and ask to see their teaching certificates. Its not like you'll be miles away - surely you can sit outside the door and presumably hear what's going on? My daughter started ballet at two and the teacher collected the children from the parents, took them into the hall and closed the door. It was perfect. Because of covid, they've had to change venues and now the parents stay in the room and watch. It's absolute chaos and so difficult for the teacher to keep the class focused with little ones running off to parent the whole time.

That sounds pretty normal to me - same for DD age 4 when she started ballet. Parents are distracting for kids and the teacher

I think maybe you are being a bit over precious......

I took my youngest daughter to trial dance classes, looked by the window, and it was very clear why parents won't allowed there. A few of these "classes"were an absolute joke, just kids running around (and encouraged to do so).

I only signed her with one that was actually a class and she was happy with. Funnily enough, I was allowed for the trial session.

I felt the same when my 4 year old daughter started her clubs in April. She currently does Kung FU, dance, swimming and football. We are not allowed to watch any of these classes all due to covid. Her dance allowed us to watch for the first time last week and tbh for the 45 mins she was there 20 mins were spent with the teacher reminding the kids to look at her/concentrate/stop running to parents etc. Honestly, the class was so unsettled. We've watched before from outside where the children couldn't see us and the lessons were so much smoother. I spoke to her King FU teacher and he said that he stopped parents coming in before covid even started (this is the only class though) as the children were too distracted especially at this age, he said the older groups weren't so bad it was her 4-6 year group that found it the hardest to concentrate with parents there. On a very few occasions when a child has been upset the teachers have come and got the parent to sit in. Although I felt exactly the same as you at the beginning I understand why it's better for them now, we won't be attending her practises only the gradings and performances from now (or watching secretly) as we can see the benefit of them being left to it. It was hard but you will develop relationships with his teachers and will slowly start to feel more comfortable with the situation, we did anyway. Hope that helps a little

Four seems terribly young to be starting martial arts. Just my thoughts, I haven't come across any child that young who does it.

This is v common with ballet classes here BUT I didn't like it either, not especially because of safety but because I was interested to know/see what they'd been doing. I understand there may not be space to sit in but viewing window maybe, or is it for the privacy of the kids? If you are uncomfortable then definitely find another setting.

YANBU!
I took my DD to ballet when she was 3. she really wanted to do it (thanks Peppa Pig) but when we got there she got tearful.
she would've not stayed if I hadn't been allowed to stay.
same with my 5 yo DS for another class.

I wouldn't ever take my kids to any class where parents aren't allowed to stay at the beginning so the kids are reassured and can gain confidence.
they are simply too little at this point to be left with total strangers in an unknown environment.

I stayed for 1 full lesson with DD, told her I'd leave during the 2nd one (we agreed she'd give me a thumbs up when she felt ok and I could go - took her about 10 mins) and didn't stay after that but by then she was totally fine.

I find it odd that, at age 4, you wouldn't be allowed to observe the trial class.

At the dance school I've taken DC to, that's how it works. They start at just turned 4 (so not yet at school). A parent can sit in on one class to observe, then they sit outside. It is distracting to have parents in there, so they are quite strict about limiting it. But having seen them in action, I know the teachers are lovely, will look after an unhappy child, or send them out to their parent if need be.

The bit I find odd is the line about protecting the privacy of the other children. That's not usual. You could ask if there's a particular reason for that. It's either a misreading / unnecessarily strict interpretation of guidance on their part, or they're being odd about something. The fact is that all nurseries, pre-schools and children's classes have new and prospective parents visiting regularly. It's carefully managed to minimise disruption but it is normal.

My DS 4 does Taekwondo and we did watch at first but recently there has been a covid breakout in another local group so we can't watch. Was hard at first to be honest but he is going to school this year so I do need to be a bit more flexible. They let parents in to watch the exams so you get some idea of how they are doing.

Cannot recommend taekwondo enough by the way for 4 yo. Excellent for coordination and confidence. Theres a little girl in my sons class who cried every lesson for months and never wanted to do the moves in front of people and now she has moved up to the next belt and doing amazingly.

Also, what's the word of mouth about this class? Parental recommendation, from parents you know, counts for a lot.

I run dance classes for kids and it's very normal to not let parents observe classes. Classes run far more smoothly without parents in the room.

That said, if I had a particularly shy/anxious child I'd let the parents observe until they were settled.

My dd was in dance age 4, with martial arts class as well and now age 6 does theatre classes too: I’ve never been into any of the classes. The reasoning was they do much better alone and are more likely to settle quickly if the parents aren’t there. The parents wait in the room next door (before covid) and in our cars (during covid). I was involved in the dance shows for my dd so I did get to see them dance at stage rehearsals but otherwise I didn’t see anything.

These schools have been running for many years and she’s now confident to go into pretty much any new place by herself (when she started school for example or starting theatre classes etc).
It’s not for every child but in our case it did develop confidence in doing things independently.

I think it's ridiculous to not want your 4 year old to go to a class you can't watch because your'e scared of abuse. Of course you should assess the teachers etc first, have some interaction etc, but the default assumption of abuse is a bit much. However, I think a LOT of 4 year olds would be very uncomfortable not having a parent nearby - certainly, DD had to delay starting dance classes as she wasn't happy going in by herself.

Refusing any parental observation is sadly a massive safeguarding red flag. In the UK back in the 80s / 90s as schools got their act together about safeguarding and set up robust systems kicking out dodgy adults, paedophiles set up numerous sports clubs in order to get access to vulnerable children. Eventually these were shut down with local authorities refusing to hire rooms to individuals and sporting bodies adopting safeguarding procedures. Then it was music lessons / private tutoring. Wherever there is a lack of safeguarding, predatory adults exploit it.

Sorry for the history lesson and the reality is that most adults are not a threat to children. BUT excessive secrecy and closed doors do not allow for the transparency and openness that safeguarding children requires.

A four year old is very young to navigate such a closed group OP - no matter how lovely the teachers might be? Are there no other options?