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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

AIBU - Is Alcoholics Anon pushing religion

161 replies

BabieDriver · 25/07/2021 23:59

I have a hunch that a friend is "stuck" in 12 step programmes. He attends Alcoholics Anon and 2 other step groups. He has a lot of serious mental conditions and is starting NHS psychotherapy this month which is good news. He is very low and seems to get progressively worse doing lots of homework as part of the step work. It busies him up, keeps him thinking about his problems imo, and he hardly goes out and he's low most of the time. I've known him 3 years, but he's been in these programmes for over 10 years.

I never researched it before but I see that the wording of the 12 step for AA are mainly about God and that other 12 step orgs use roughly the same wording. I'm not against God, I believe in a God, but I don't follow any religion. I was brought up in a church religion and I strongly believe that support for vulnerable people and people with mental health issues should be secular - my church wanted to spread the word, it preached a lot of fear and I feel there is a similar angle in these steps and they are harmful and guilt-inducing, mentioning defects, atonement and giving up power.

Link: AA 12 Steps

My church liked people to stay for life. I hear that some people can stay in the step programmes all their lives too - vulnerable people. Yes, it does say that you don't have to believe, but if that's the case, why not re-write the steps and make it secular? Is it because religions are too powerful? I can't help but wonder how he would have fared in secular programmes that might not have an interest in keeping him long term? AIBU?

OP posts:
FlappyFish · 26/07/2021 00:03

The steps have been rewritten by others.

In AA, God can mean whatever you want it to be. It’s simply a power greater than yourself. The point being your best intentions couldn’t help you get on top of addiction, so perhaps something bigger than you can.

It’s not like a Christian God, though some do see it that way.

3 types of step groups sounds like cross addiction and looking for something else to cure him. It has, has, to come from the person themselves.

Nat6999 · 26/07/2021 01:02

Tell them to look for Smart recovery groups, Smart recovery is an alternate way to become alcohol free.

Coyoacan · 26/07/2021 01:11

So you don't think AA should refer to a higher being. Fair dos but it does and that works for millions of people around the world

Saoirse82 · 26/07/2021 01:35

My uncle got sober through AA and stayed sober til the day he died 27 years after finding AA. He was an atheist, his higher power was the sea. It doesn't have to be God in the biblical sense, its just believing in a power greater than yourself whatever that may be. AA gave him his life back, in fact it was more than that, it gave him a life 'beyond his wildest dreams'. He was my hero and a lot of the person he became was because of AA and the 12 steps.

Mockolate · 26/07/2021 01:41

@Coyoacan

So you don't think AA should refer to a higher being. Fair dos but it does and that works for millions of people around the world
This.
CeciledeVolanges · 26/07/2021 01:54

Did you know the founder of AA smoked himself to death, had to be accompanied by a couple of people to stop him assaulting younger women, and was tripping on LSD when he got sober? Just a thought. And anywhere that tells me my higher power can be a doorknob is a little odd IMO.

480Widdio · 26/07/2021 02:02

I have been sober in Alcoholics Anonymous for over 18years.It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Religion.

@BabieDriver what is your real reason for starting this thread? If AA doesn’t suit your “friend” they are free to leave.

I have reported this thread,there could be someone reading this who is thinking of attending AA.Posting a link to the steps is really out of order.

Mockolate · 26/07/2021 02:06

I have reported this thread,there could be someone reading this who is thinking of attending AA.Posting a link to the steps is really out of order.

Good call, it doesn't matter how anyone wants to get sober they shouldn't be put off getting help.

Original poster
BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 02:20

@FlappyFish

I've not seen that the steps have been re-written when I look on other 12 step websites - where did you see them re-written?

"In AA, God can mean whatever you want it to be. It’s simply a power greater than yourself. The point being your best intentions couldn’t help you get on top of addiction, so perhaps something bigger than you can."

This is a much better explanation - but I still have a problem with the word God being used. It would be better if they used your words.

OP posts:
Shamoo · 26/07/2021 02:25

Having done a 12 step programme, they are VERY clear that god doesn’t mean the traditional sense of god. It can mean anything. For me it meant Mother Nature. It’s fine, it’s not religious at all in the way it operates. I am an atheist and if I had felt it had any religion I wouldn’t have been able to use it. Honestly, I was a sceptic when I went in, but I would recommend it to anyone with addiction issues.

Harmonical · 26/07/2021 02:25

It's certainly a spiritual programme, is not based on science and isn't thought to have as good a success rate as other treatments (although their limited record keeping makes that somewhat difficult to assess). Some of their teachings can also be damaging to some people (and there are actually recovery groups for former members who have been negatively affected).

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 26/07/2021 02:25

Posting a link to the steps is really out of order.

Why? What are they hiding?

Original poster
BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 02:26

@480Widdio - why would posting the steps not be acceptable if the steps are available on every 12 step website?

OP posts:
Original poster
BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 02:28

@Harmonical - yes it's not for everyone. That why I don't feel it's right for my friend but I feel that he is very vulnerable.

OP posts:
UrbanRambler · 26/07/2021 02:30

I disagree with the OP's implication that AA is pushing religion. However, I see no issue with them posting the link, as it takes people to the AA website, which is available for anyone to view, and might be a useful website for anyone who is ready to seek help with a drinking problem.

@480Widdio Congrats on your many years of sobriety. Alcoholism has destroyed the lives of 2 members of my family, and seems to be taking a 3rd, so I'm aware of how tight the demon drink can grip people. I sometimes think the whole planet would be better off if alcohol had never been invented (athough I realise many people can enjoy it without becoming alcoholics, and it's impossible to prove whether it has brought more misery than joy to humans, overall).

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 26/07/2021 02:32

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Harmonical · 26/07/2021 02:34

I'll leave this here. Obviously not the final word on the topic, but worthwhile reading.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/386255/

480Widdio · 26/07/2021 02:35

@ClumpingBambooIsALie,idiotic ramblings like this are another reason for having this thread deleted...I have reported.

These threads always appear at night as well.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 26/07/2021 02:37

[quote 480Widdio]@ClumpingBambooIsALie,idiotic ramblings like this are another reason for having this thread deleted...I have reported.

These threads always appear at night as well.[/quote]
Ramblings? I thought I expressed my distaste quite succinctly.

I also don't see what's reportable. People are allowed opinions.

480Widdio · 26/07/2021 02:39

@Harmonical,also reported this,Mumsnet is not the place for this.

Alcoholics die in their thousands.AA has grown enormously in the Pandemic,there are so many meetings on Zoom.

The idea that people like you are trying to put people off finding help is abhorrent.

480Widdio · 26/07/2021 02:41

@ClumpingBambooIsALie,we will agree to disagree,hopefully the whole thread will be gone by the morning.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 26/07/2021 02:41

I want people to find effective, safe help.

ClumpingBambooIsALie · 26/07/2021 02:45

we will agree to disagree

Who died and put you in charge 😂

hopefully the whole thread will be gone by the morning

What board rules is it in violation of? It's entirely reasonable for people to want to discuss whether a sometimes-controversial organisation that purports to help desperate, vulnerable people is actually fulfilling that claim. Especially one whose supporters would prefer that its methods remain unseen.

Original poster
BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 02:46

@Shamoo - that is very good to know, I'm really glad it was successful for you and it's comforting to hear that. Mother Nature is a good representation. I just find it unhelpful that it is such a major 12 step organisation and it has to mention God in the step's - that it isn't neutral in it's wording. I wonder if it varies depending on where it's held and by who.

OP posts:
Mockolate · 26/07/2021 02:51

It's entirely reasonable for people to want to discuss whether a sometimes-controversial organisation that purports to help desperate, vulnerable people is actually fulfilling that claim

Yes, but surely you can see that if anyone is seeking help from alcoholism, they don't need to be put off just because others think it's dubious because they might have a religious slant?!
It's good they're being helped.
Also as others say it doesn't have to be about God.