AIBU - Is Alcoholics Anon pushing religion

[BabieDriver]

I have a hunch that a friend is "stuck" in 12 step programmes. He attends Alcoholics Anon and 2 other step groups. He has a lot of serious mental conditions and is starting NHS psychotherapy this month which is good news. He is very low and seems to get progressively worse doing lots of homework as part of the step work. It busies him up, keeps him thinking about his problems imo, and he hardly goes out and he's low most of the time. I've known him 3 years, but he's been in these programmes for over 10 years.

I never researched it before but I see that the wording of the 12 step for AA are mainly about God and that other 12 step orgs use roughly the same wording. I'm not against God, I believe in a God, but I don't follow any religion. I was brought up in a church religion and I strongly believe that support for vulnerable people and people with mental health issues should be secular - my church wanted to spread the word, it preached a lot of fear and I feel there is a similar angle in these steps and they are harmful and guilt-inducing, mentioning defects, atonement and giving up power.

Link: AA 12 Steps

My church liked people to stay for life. I hear that some people can stay in the step programmes all their lives too - vulnerable people. Yes, it does say that you don't have to believe, but if that's the case, why not re-write the steps and make it secular? Is it because religions are too powerful? I can't help but wonder how he would have fared in secular programmes that might not have an interest in keeping him long term? AIBU?

@Ozgirl75 I heard it at AA, actually. My aunt has heard the same thing, as has my sponsor.

Al Anon isn't the same as AA, AA is for alcoholics and Al Anon is for the friends and family of alcoholics.

I've been in AA for about 5 years now, and honestly, my take is that it is what you make of it. Yes, the founders were patriarchal and religious. However, you don't have to be religious to get help from it. The most powerful aspect for me has been listening to other people's stories and being able to talk frankly about struggling with addiction to other people who have been there. Yes, there are some toxic people in AA, but that's true of any group with open membership. It's not a cult, whether and how often you want to go to meetings is entirely up to you. The honesty and vulnerability that people regularly demonstrate when talking about their lives are very moving.

Some people in AA think it's the one true path to sobriety, I disagree. There are lots of tools for recovery out there and AA is just one. It won't suit everyone, but for me it was a lifeline. Where I live, there are loads of meetings and you slowly get to know the ones that suit you. I tend to avoid the big meetings that are more 'by the book' and go to the smaller, quirkier meetings.

I also like NA because its vocabulary is more secular than the AA vocabulary. NA sees alcohol as just another drug, so alcoholics are welcome at NA meetings.

AA has been around so long that there are plenty of more nuanced and secular versions of the 12 steps, as people have said. A Woman's Way Through the 12 Steps, for example, is a feminist take on AA. It acknowledges that the discourse of powerlessness is not v helpful to women, whose self-esteem is often low to begin with, so redefines powerlessness in a more empowering way (ha). To me, powerlessness means that I can't control what other people do -- instead of pouring all my energy into making them happy, I can look after myself. Another excellent secular version of the 12 steps is in Gabor Mate's extraordinary book about addiction, In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts.

Personally I attend AA meetings but have read a lot of other literature about addiction on the side. Other people in AA are quite religious and stick to the AA Big Book (which I find old-fashioned and patriarchal, but to each their own).

If your friend has been going to AA so long, he has likely built up a support network that is very valuable to him. But if the meetings are making him unhappy, that's a different story. Maybe he needs a different sponsor (does he have a sponsor?) or a different approach to recovery. Only he can answer that question.

Just wanted to say thank you OP for starting this thread. It has given me knowledge that I did not have before.

@NiceGerbil

That's how I feel clumping.

To teach people with addictions seeking help that they are powerless to stop is pretty rubbish tbh and also not true.

And then once you've accepted you're powerless. Then comes handing over your life to God, being open and Frank with God. Praying and meditating on him. And trusting He will sort out your problems.

That feels like the antithesis of how to go about it. To me anyway.

That's a misinterpretation.

Step 3-11 are essential they are about the things the person isn't powerless over: becoming willing to change, and taking responsibility for their actions. Free Will still exists in AA. Free Will means accepting that the disease is ruining your life, it's a problem bigger than your ability to fix by yourself, so you need all the help you can get to change. And you have a duty to make amends & try to be a better person. You always have Free Will it's always your decision to be willing to get better and to try to be a better person. Not powerless over everything, just powerless over alcohol (or narcotics or gambling or binge eating, etc)

Often the "higher power" is the programme itself & the 12 step process.

OP: if you went to Al-Anon, as a "supportive friend of an alcoholic" that might help you understand the 12 step process better. Beware you'll hear some harrowing stories and be frustrated by people who don't know how to set good boundaries. But is a good way to figure out for yourself how to keep your sanity & still be a good friend.

I have been sober in Alcoholics Anonymous for over 18years.It has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Religion

That's simply not true and you know it. If it had absolutely nothing to do with religion there would no be so many religious references in it! It was founded by fundamentalist christians, and even the US Supreme Court declared it to be religious, and that it was unconstitutional to mandate people to join as you can't force people into religion.

It's rather cultlike in many ways. If you're telling us AA is nothing to do with religion, you;re either deluded or lying, and neither looks good for AA.

I might add that I hope anyone struggling with drinking doesn't avoid AA because the think it's going to be too religious! I avoided it myself for that reason for ages. Once I actually tried it out, I found out that most members weren't religious. And it gave me the support I needed to get sober.

In parts of the US I'm sure the meetings are more god-centric, but that's because parts of the US are culturally very evangelical.

I tried AA, really didn't like it - as the groups I attended seemed very pushy and tried to suggest my mental illness was 'only' alcoholism and i should stop taking my medication. I would tentatively use the word 'cult' for these people.
I have stayed sober with no outside help for 8 years now. However, I also work with substance abusers who have no supportive family or friends and find the fellowship amazing.

Personally, sitting in a room twice a week talking about drinking isn't my bag but many people do find it works.

So many opinions on the 'A's abound

Lepetitpiggy that's awful, the people who told you to stop taking your meds were 100 percent wrong and are giving AA a bad name

Nowhere in AA literature are you told to stop taking prescribed drugs. I've had one AA member mansplain to me that I didn't need my antidepressant meds. I told him politely to fuck off. In fact my antidepressants seem to work a lot better now that I'm not mixing them with alcohol.

There are nutters in 'the rooms' unfortunately, but I've found them to be a minority. I gravitate to the people I like/identify with in recovery and give the rest a wide berth.

Just saw Qwerty's post. Yikes. Yes, the founders were very religious. But most members today are not, at least not in my experience. Yes, there are many references to God in the original literature. I and many others interpret them metaphorically. If you would find that difficult, then AA is probably not the recovery group for you. Something like Smart would be better.

I don't think anything should be forced down people's throats, especially not AA, so I think the Supreme Court decision was bang on point.

[quote BabieDriver]@FlappyFish

I've not seen that the steps have been re-written when I look on other 12 step websites - where did you see them re-written?

"In AA, God can mean whatever you want it to be. It’s simply a power greater than yourself. The point being your best intentions couldn’t help you get on top of addiction, so perhaps something bigger than you can."

This is a much better explanation - but I still have a problem with the word God being used. It would be better if they used your words.[/quote]
Why have you started a thread about something you obviously have zero knowledge or experience of? Your ignorant thread could put somebody off from seeking the help they need.

The AA is not Christian, it is not religious at all and this would be very clear to anybody from their very first meeting. This point and the explanation of a higher power is made each and every time and your friend could not possibly have missed this.

@cassandre

Lepetitpiggy that's awful, the people who told you to stop taking your meds were 100 percent wrong and are giving AA a bad name

Nowhere in AA literature are you told to stop taking prescribed drugs. I've had one AA member mansplain to me that I didn't need my antidepressant meds. I told him politely to fuck off. In fact my antidepressants seem to work a lot better now that I'm not mixing them with alcohol.

There are nutters in 'the rooms' unfortunately, but I've found them to be a minority. I gravitate to the people I like/identify with in recovery and give the rest a wide berth.

I felt constantly pestered and 'love bombed'. It was very unsettling. I tried all the meetings in my city and the same people were there so I chose to go alone!

That's such a shame, Lepetitpiggy, if the meetings in my area had been like that, I would have run a mile too.

Congratulations on your 8 years of sobriety by the way, what a fantastic achievement

@cassandre

Just saw Qwerty's post. Yikes. Yes, the founders were very religious. But most members today are not, at least not in my experience. Yes, there are many references to God in the original literature. I and many others interpret them metaphorically. If you would find that difficult, then AA is probably not the recovery group for you. Something like Smart would be better.

I don't think anything should be forced down people's throats, especially not AA, so I think the Supreme Court decision was bang on point.

It's not just in the original literature, its in the current literature. You can interpret the religious references however you want, but to deny they are religious references is to lie.

This thread has been a real eye-opener for me. I've heard about '12 step' programs, but it turns out those steps are nothing like I assumed they were.

Even if you are advised to replace the word 'god' with whatever works for you, I honestly can't fathom what sort of concept an atheist could logically replace god with in the steps like: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him," "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character," "Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings." " Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out."

This 'higher power' needs to have a 'will for us' and be able to 'take care of us' and 'remove our shortcomings'. The majesty of space or lovely old oak tree in my garden or the memory of my granny or whatever else people are implying I can replace 'god' with can't do these things unless I deify them and, in a way, become religious.

I agree, the original language is absolutely steeped in religion. I don't find it helpful either. But for me, the point of AA is finding other people who are supporting one another to stay clean and sober, one day at a time. AA has helped me despite the religious vocab, not because of it, and I know I'm not alone. (See the Russell Brand version of the steps cited above!)

I've worked through the steps with a sponsor (also non-religious) and for the steps you quote, I interpreted them as something like: 'Decided to listen to and trust my best self rather thinking I needed to numb my emotions with drink in order to cope with daily life.' 'Was ready to think about the painful side effects of my addictive behaviours, and get to the root of the insecurities that were making me drink.' 'Decided to listen to my best self and make a conscious effort to find other coping strategies instead of resorting to my familiar addictive behaviours.' 'Took time out of my ultra-busy daily life to meditate/go for a walk/have a bath/read a novel or whatever I need to find a bit of serenity.'

So for me, it was entirely non religious. I don't pray. My sponsor was supportive. I know that what I've said above about my interpretation of the steps is wildly different to what the steps actually say (!), but again, I know many others have used the programme as I have, as a method of soul-searching that doesn't involve God. In some ways AA is quite similar to Stoic philosophy, and also to existentialism, though AA purists might be horrified at those comparisons.

If AA were being invented today, the steps would certainly read very differently. And I don't think it's a bad thing that so many other recovery groups have sprung up in addition to AA. There's nothing magical about the steps. It's a lot of hard work: facing up to truths about yourself and ultimately being compassionate in the face of your own imperfections.

So what you are saying is that you took a blatantly religious program and somehow managed to make it feel non religious for you. Which is great, if that worked for you...but why are you pretending that its not actually religious?
It's honesty one of the steps?

Qwerty, as I keep saying, the original programme was religious. The programme now isn't religious unless you choose to interpret it that way. Some people do and some people don't. If you don't like the religious phrasing, no worries: find another recovery group. The heart of the programme for me isn't the official, old-fashioned AA literature; it's about what people in the rooms are actually saying and doing.

FWIW I grew up in an ultra-fundamentalist Christian church and if I did consider religion to be at AA's core, I couldn't stomach it. If you go to meetings, what you will mostly get is a lot of people sharing about their private lives, and a lot of practical wisdom: 'One day at a time.' 'Live and let live.' 'Easy does it.' 'First things first.'

As a result of my fundie background though, I am repelled at the notion of proselytising for anything, so proselytising for AA is the last thing I want to do. If it's not your bag, as someone said above, no worries!

Qwerty, as I keep saying, the original programme was religious. The programme now isn't religious unless you choose to interpret it that way

And as I keep saying, that is an outright LIE.

3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

1. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

1. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

These are not steps that you need to CHOOSE to interpret as religious, they are blatantly and obviously religious.

The question is why are you lying about this? That's disturbing.

A close friend has been keeping sober with in AA for several years now. He is not religious but doesn't find the references to religion problematic (he is in America, so his local chapter probably has more of a religious slant than any AA group over here would do!).

Much of the value in the programme is having a community of other people who understand what he's been through and are there for him; he has a really good relationship with his sponsor and has found it life-changing.

AA specifically isn't the right fit for everyone, and there are other recovery approaches worth trying if this one doesn't seem to be working for your friend. But please don't rubbish AA in generalit helps many people struggling with addiction and it's very defeatist and unhelpful to flounce around saying, "Oh, it mentions god and I don't like that, so I don't think people should do it"let each individual find out what works best for them.

Everyone should remember there are many paths to recovery.

One of the AA meetings I attend uses "Group Of Drunks" to mean G-D, which I like, as that group of drunks I count as some of my closest and dearest friends are absolutely key to my ongoing sobriety.

AA is free to attend, there are thousands of meetings up and down the country, at all times of day. You take what you need from it, and are free to leave the rest.

I've never had a sponsor, and I never worked the Steps - I simply didn't feel the need to.

I wonder how many people on here who are castigating AA have actually attended a meeting? There are open meetings for friends and family members to join in and support the alcoholic in their lives.

p.s. I always recommend a great book by Charlotte Kasl called Many Roads, One Journey. It's kind of a feminist critique of the 12 steps, and would probably be enjoyed by everyone here who is steamed about the religious side of AA . Kasl's take is very much "If AA works for you and you're happy with it, that's fine" though; she doesn't feel the need to tear it down just because because of its patriarchal/religious underpinnings and because there are other approaches that are more helpful for some people.

I give up Qwerty, I've been as brutally honest as I know how to be about my experience with AA. If you perceive me to be lying, that's your prerogative.

Thanks for the book rec, CousinKrispy!

Both parents have been sober for over 40 years due to AA. So, it works.

Once you're an alcoholic you're one for life so would make sense you're a member of AA for life? I guess it's swapping one addiction for another.

If you really cared, you'd have researched what being an alcoholic means. You aren't one and can't understand. Leave it alone.