AIBU - Is Alcoholics Anon pushing religion

[BabieDriver]

I have a hunch that a friend is "stuck" in 12 step programmes. He attends Alcoholics Anon and 2 other step groups. He has a lot of serious mental conditions and is starting NHS psychotherapy this month which is good news. He is very low and seems to get progressively worse doing lots of homework as part of the step work. It busies him up, keeps him thinking about his problems imo, and he hardly goes out and he's low most of the time. I've known him 3 years, but he's been in these programmes for over 10 years.

I never researched it before but I see that the wording of the 12 step for AA are mainly about God and that other 12 step orgs use roughly the same wording. I'm not against God, I believe in a God, but I don't follow any religion. I was brought up in a church religion and I strongly believe that support for vulnerable people and people with mental health issues should be secular - my church wanted to spread the word, it preached a lot of fear and I feel there is a similar angle in these steps and they are harmful and guilt-inducing, mentioning defects, atonement and giving up power.

Link: AA 12 Steps

My church liked people to stay for life. I hear that some people can stay in the step programmes all their lives too - vulnerable people. Yes, it does say that you don't have to believe, but if that's the case, why not re-write the steps and make it secular? Is it because religions are too powerful? I can't help but wonder how he would have fared in secular programmes that might not have an interest in keeping him long term? AIBU?

Also some religions do a lot of harm to people in the name of God. My parents, teachers, schools - really negative experiences - that's a valid point.

OK, fair enough, can see that - however I just don't see what it's doing wrong for others. Why make others waver or doubt themselves.
What works for someone won't work for someone else.

@milkyaqua

But he feels it's right for him, and has been helping him for the last ten years. Would you rather he relapsed?

Last sentence: That is a really silly question?!

He has a lot of mental health problems, he's very vulnerable, I felt he might not be the best person to judge what is right for him because it seems to have taken over his life so he's become absorbed in his step work with no time for much else.

But the positive responses from others are here encouraging. It sounds like it depends on where you go and who good the sponsor is.

None of this is new it's been in the news etc from time to time for years.

In the end if it suits you then good.

Googling just now I did see s few things about those who can't leave- it becomes a key part of their life. I don't think that's particularly healthy.

One obsessive behaviour (addiction) is replaced with another 'crutch'. To me that doesn't feel like getting over it.

I do sometimes wonder how it has become the usual treatment.

NHS had a link.

I was looking at the priory the other day they do it.

The OP knows nothing about AA - hasn't even got the name right. It's Alcoholics Anonymous, not Alcoholics Anon.

If she'd met her friend eleven years ago, rather than three - therefore, only knowing him in his sobriety - she might have a very different 'feeling' about it, this thing she doesn't know anything about.

Meanwhile, it is none of her business how he spends his time, or what other issues he may be feeling the need to address in other fellowships.

One obsessive behaviour (addiction) is replaced with another 'crutch'. To me that doesn't feel like getting over it.

That's got nothing to do with the twelve steps though.
Which is what the original post was about.

[quote BabieDriver]@milkyaqua

But he feels it's right for him, and has been helping him for the last ten years. Would you rather he relapsed?

Last sentence: That is a really silly question?!

He has a lot of mental health problems, he's very vulnerable, I felt he might not be the best person to judge what is right for him because it seems to have taken over his life so he's become absorbed in his step work with no time for much else.

But the positive responses from others are here encouraging. It sounds like it depends on where you go and who good the sponsor is.[/quote]
10 years?

Loads of MH problems?

He's not a boozer any more i am assuming.

It consumes his time...

In the end what can you do.

But I think you're right.

Glad he is seeing NHS.

But to me like I said. It's his crutch now. So he's not actually sorted is he. And his MH probs persist.

Poor bloke.

You're right though what he's doing with AA is not healthy.

I've no intrinsic objection to the concept of AA-type groups, apart from the inherent safeguarding problems built into the model. What I do have a problem with us the behaviour of some of the adherents.

I've had great success with medication for psychiatric illness. Imagine if I rushed into any thread where someone was worried about a friend's potential side effects, demanded that the thread be deleted in case it put people off trying meds, and told somebody off for linking to a patient information leaflet. That's what posters here have done with AA.

@Mockolate

Also some religions do a lot of harm to people in the name of God. My parents, teachers, schools - really negative experiences - that's a valid point.

OK, fair enough, can see that - however I just don't see what it's doing wrong for others. Why make others waver or doubt themselves.
What works for someone won't work for someone else.

I wasn't sure how they were being run. If they were run the way my parents/teachers/schools ran things there would have been a manipulative element to them. However, it sound mainly positive and I'm genuinely pleased to hear that.

@Mockolate

One obsessive behaviour (addiction) is replaced with another 'crutch'. To me that doesn't feel like getting over it.

That's got nothing to do with the twelve steps though.
Which is what the original post was about.

The original 12 steps (can't imagine the gist will have changed):

The following are the original twelve steps as published by Alcoholics Anonymous:[11]

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Why have you just reeled off the steps?
That has no bearing on what I actually said so not sure why you've quoted me

AA UK site just now.

We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.

Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Admitted to God, to ourselves and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Oh sorry.

My point is- and also seems to be plenty of stuff out there about it.

Is that finding it impossible to leave is not uncommon.

And that is not successful treatment. Is it.

You're still not free. Not really.

I know quite a few people who not only have managed to give up alcohol and stay off it, but have also managed to grew as human beings to become very wise.

NiceGerbil think your internet's playing up, you've just posted that lol

I'm not quite sure what the point about "10 years" is. Some people find they need to continue to attend meetings for the rest of their lives.

A lot of people with mental health issues self-medicate with alcohol and drugs, and some also find after a period of sobriety that they have traumatic issues from their past to deal with - some via a therapist, psychiatrist, or counsellor, and others that lend themselves to another 12 step group if they are comfortable with that model. eg Al-Anon, if the problematic drinking of a family member has left them with unhealthy behaviours, presenting in recovery and leaving them confused and miserable; or GA for gambling, or whatever - finding support and hope in others who've worked on or are working on the same stuff.

What's it to anyone else? Just because you don't understand it and have a limited ability to imagine what it's like doesn't mean it's wrong.

That list of steps to me is more like s religion or even a cult.

10 years and he's still going. Still has MH problems.

The step things he does take up s lot of his time and preoccupy him.

That's not s man who has got better. Is it.

@Mockolate

One obsessive behaviour (addiction) is replaced with another 'crutch'. To me that doesn't feel like getting over it.

That's got nothing to do with the twelve steps though.
Which is what the original post was about.

@Mockolate - actually @Nicegerbil does make a good point.

My OP was about concerns about the 12 steps being connected with God but ALSO the way it has consumed my friend's time and it does feel like a crutch or a second addiction.

@Mockolate

NiceGerbil think your internet's playing up, you've just posted that lol

Lol?

The first 12 steps is the original ones in the USA.

I must admit i expected to find some big differences in the current uk ones esp with the god stuff.

I was very surprised that they're essentially the same.

As you obviously noticed as well!

It is very Goddy-sounding. And that alone would, at first glance, put me off, since I'm non-religious. If pro-AAers want to encourage non-religious people to join, they'd be better off explaining how it works in practice in UK groups for non-religious people than stomping about demanding thread deletions and insulting people.

In the end it's up to him.

I don't think saying anything will help.

Support him with his NHS treatment obv.

I agree with you that in the end. This has not has not essentially addressed his issues.

I'm sorry. For him and for you worrying.

Clumping the second 12 steps I posted are from the UK AA site.

Yes very 'goddy'.

@NiceGerbil

That list of steps to me is more like s religion or even a cult.

10 years and he's still going. Still has MH problems.

The step things he does take up s lot of his time and preoccupy him.

That's not s man who has got better. Is it.

I really struggle reading the steps. They surprise me - they don't feel like they belong in 2021.

I've also seen posts elsewhere about AA being cultish - but if all the responses here had confirmed that, then I would have been worried. I just think it's genuinely antiquated wording and obviously that will offend some posters here.

He's not well, he's really struggling. Glad he has NHS therapies.

From my POV the thrust of the first 3 or 4 steps is just really unhelpful.

Essentially you have to accept that there is NOTHING you do. No way. Not even worth thinking about. For you to escape addiction.

Not for yourself. Not for anything. Not even if you want to.

It's impossible.

Not that you will always be in recovery and have to watch yourself.

No. That it is impossible for you to stop.

The only way is to turn yourself over to a higher power (god). Only he can help.

That is to me fundamentally totally.. not right.

Clumping the second 12 steps I posted are from the UK AA site.

Yep I saw what you were trying to do by posting both sets and agree that it's surprising that the religious part is still so explicit even in the UK. But I do know that in practice, UK people will… work around religious stuff if necessary. I think if the AA enthusiasts wanted to do damage limitation here, they'd be emphasising ways in which UK AA members interpret those rules in practice to foster a more inclusive environment, rather than trying to shut down people who have questions, concerns or opinions.

I also agree with your discomfort about the emphasis on the helplessness and impotence of the addict. They might as well explicitly say "you have to join AA and stay in it for the rest of your life, you're too weak to manage without us and leaving is an act of doomed arrogance".