AIBU - Is Alcoholics Anon pushing religion

[BabieDriver]

I have a hunch that a friend is "stuck" in 12 step programmes. He attends Alcoholics Anon and 2 other step groups. He has a lot of serious mental conditions and is starting NHS psychotherapy this month which is good news. He is very low and seems to get progressively worse doing lots of homework as part of the step work. It busies him up, keeps him thinking about his problems imo, and he hardly goes out and he's low most of the time. I've known him 3 years, but he's been in these programmes for over 10 years.

I never researched it before but I see that the wording of the 12 step for AA are mainly about God and that other 12 step orgs use roughly the same wording. I'm not against God, I believe in a God, but I don't follow any religion. I was brought up in a church religion and I strongly believe that support for vulnerable people and people with mental health issues should be secular - my church wanted to spread the word, it preached a lot of fear and I feel there is a similar angle in these steps and they are harmful and guilt-inducing, mentioning defects, atonement and giving up power.

Link: AA 12 Steps

My church liked people to stay for life. I hear that some people can stay in the step programmes all their lives too - vulnerable people. Yes, it does say that you don't have to believe, but if that's the case, why not re-write the steps and make it secular? Is it because religions are too powerful? I can't help but wonder how he would have fared in secular programmes that might not have an interest in keeping him long term? AIBU?

@ClumpingBambooIsALie - Thanks. Any organisation can be praised or criticised - why should 12 step organisations be any different. I'm glad that some people have had good experiences. My original post wasn't intended to offend anyone. I'm concerned about my friend who doesn't seem to be getting better which is worrying me.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie,A controversial organisation! In all the years I have attended this is a revelation to me.

I take it you are an Alcoholic,there are plenty of other programmes that help.If AA doesn’t suit you go somewhere else.There is nothing secret,you certainly have some exceedingly strange ideas.

A discussion will only result in people who are thinking of joining having the opportunity to know a little more about the organisation beforehand. If the idea that AA requires acknowledging a "higher power" (however you choose to conceptualise that) would put someone off, then surely it's in their interest to know that before getting involved? Those who want to encourage people to join AA would do better to explain what that means and how it can be adapted to the individual, rather than trying to shut down discussion.

Yes, 480, it's controversial.

And yes, there are other programmes.

And secret? I'm not the one who told someone off for linking to the steps. You're the one making it look dodgy 😅

@BabieDriver,it sounds as if your friend has more problems than just Alcoholism.A lot of Alcoholics suffer with mental health issues and need Psychiatric help.If AA is genuinely making him worse I would encourage him to leave,it doesn’t suit everyone.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie,you really are getting tiresome now,goodnight.

😂

@Saoirse82 - thank you. That is a really beautiful success story and I'm so sorry for your loss - he sounds like an amazing person. I'm happy that there is a lot of support for AA because I've been worried that my friend was lost - obviously I've never been to an AA meeting or had any other experience other than through my friend. It's comforting to hear this.

AA doesn’t suit everyone and some people think it’s religious, if you don’t know much about it, then it’s probably worth asking instead of just assuming you’re right.
I do know about it because my DH has been in AA for 14 years and it has fundamentally changed his and our lives.
Equally, it took a while to “take”, he had to find the right sponsor, he has had three sponsors for the different stages of his recovery. You have to be actively involved and yes, not everyone will be successful. Alcoholism is a very hard addiction as alcohol isn’t illegal, isn’t socially unacceptable (in fact often the very opposite) and is everywhere. Also, some people think that it’s just about willpower, which it’s not.
I wish your friend every success. If he can try different meetings, approach people who seem to be doing well he may find this helps. My husband has been to some awful meetings and some brilliant ones.

I just find it unhelpful that it is such a major 12 step organisation and it has to mention God in the step's - that it isn't neutral in it's wording.

If that works for others though, so what?
Their way is just as valid as those finding comfort from Mother Nature or whatever.

The first paragraph was to ClumpingBabboons not the OP.

ClumpingBabools not Babboons

@480Widdio - yes, he does have a lot of mental health problems. I was worried he was putting all his eggs in one basket with the12 step programmes because he doesn't have a life really. I wanted to get advice here first and it's actually good to hear that most comments are positive and posters don't feel it is pushing religion. It would be likely to be a very difficult conversation which he might be very defensive about - obviously it's up to him what he wants to do.

Yes, but surely you can see that if anyone is seeking help from alcoholism, they don't need to be put off just because others think it's dubious because they might have a religious slant?!
AA has become almost synonymous with alcohol addiction treatment, despite there being mixed evidence as to it's effectiveness vs other treatments. It is also can be harmful to some people, particularly when those people don't realize that there are other treatment options out there. I wouldn't tell someone not to go, but I think that people should at least be more aware that it is just one of many options. I don't think the OP is unreasonable to worry that AA might not be helping her friend.

@CeciledeVolanges I’m not sure where you’ve got the idea that the higher power can be a doorknob from, I’m guessing you don’t know a huge amount about this?

The problem is @Harmonical the recidivism rate for all alcohol treatments is very high. It’s a very difficult addiction to treat.
And in fact the main thing should be not to treat the addiction itself, but the underlying reasons for turning to alcohol in the first place. But it can be very difficult for the alcoholic to be self aware enough to deal with this, and then they have to find a good sponsor who is also self aware and able to help the sponsee.

Ozgirl I haven't really commented about the religiosity or otherwise. I'm aware that people are invited to conceptualise "higher power" in the way that's most useful to them. What concerns me is that people on this thread who are coming over as AA evangelists seem to be keen to discourage people from looking into that aspect of it before joining, whereas I'm a believer in informed consent. What concerns me more about AA is the number of people who've fallen victim to predators within AA because it's not set up in a way which allows for effective safeguarding, which attracts exploitative individuals, and the fact that the best guess anyone can make for the efficacy of AA is in the low single digits (and it's a guess because it's very difficult to do good science on AA). Nevertheless, there are many people who say it's helped them, so people who are thinking of joining should be given all the info they need to come to a decision. HTH.

[quote BabieDriver]@Harmonical - yes it's not for everyone. That why I don't feel it's right for my friend but I feel that he is very vulnerable.[/quote]
But he feels it's right for him, and has been helping him for the last ten years. Would you rather he relapsed?

@Mockolate

I just find it unhelpful that it is such a major 12 step organisation and it has to mention God in the step's - that it isn't neutral in it's wording.

If that works for others though, so what?
Their way is just as valid as those finding comfort from Mother Nature or whatever.

It would put someone like me off if I had an issue. About 10 years ago, I had some issues and if I'd seen the 12 step programme for my issue I wouldn't have pursued it any further. So I can see that it can work for some people, like Mother Nature, but I would have seen the wording and not gone any further.

Also some religions do a lot of harm to people in the name of God. My parents, teachers, schools - really negative experiences - that's a valid point.

The problem is @Harmonical the recidivism rate for all alcohol treatments is very high. It’s a very difficult addiction to treat.
Yes, which is all the more reason why people should be aware of the different treatment options available and there's no one-size-fits-all treatment.

And in fact the main thing should be not to treat the addiction itself, but the underlying reasons for turning to alcohol in the first place. But it can be very difficult for the alcoholic to be self aware enough to deal with this, and then they have to find a good sponsor who is also self aware and able to help the sponsee.
Why does that have to be done via a 12-step program with a sponsor? Why not, for example, CBT?

If he's in AA then he's an alcoholic - that's going to have FAR more impact on his life and mh than the 12 step programme designed to help him resist his addiction.

Addicts are ALWAYS addicts WILL always be addicts whether they're actively participating in their addiction or not

Quite honestly it sounds far more like your issues with religion and your religious upbringing are colouring your view on this than anything else - and I speak as a lapsed Catholic!

AA works for a lot of people - not everyone - but a lot

I have tons of addicts in my family and the ones that have achieved and MAINTAINED sobriety are the ones that not only joined recovery programmes but have remained in them.

Is your friend sober and clean?

Many addicts become addicts via self medicating mh issues. I've certainly seen that be the case in my family, I believe the issue is a genetic predisposition to severe depression - from which I also suffer. In my case it's manifested in ocd and agoraphobia

The addicts in my family have that have achieved sobriety have done so in different ways according to what approach works best for them. Some with AA, some with church based groups, some through more traditional psychotherapy, some through less conventional methods - if it works for them who has the right to criticise that?

Addiction is a bastard of an illness, it wrecks not only lives but whole families and communities.

We've still so much to learn about it eg it's now believed that addicts brains developed differently to others

It's not always substances either. It's gambling, spending, exercise...

The latter 2 of these still barely recognised in the Uk certainly not properly recognised within the nhs in my experience

Not RTFT sorry.

OP-

If you Google etc there is s whole load of stuff about the religious thing.

Also stuff about women attending being targeted.

AA started in USA didn't it? So that's a point of context.

@Harmonical I don’t think it is the only solution although it is the solution for lots of people. I think CBT would probably work very well too. I don’t have the knowledge of that, I only know a bit about AA.
The good thing about AA as well is that it’s totally free and you’re encouraged to go to meetings every day at first. I think CBT/counselling would be great but the cost would put lots of people off.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoholics_Anonymous

There's no doubt that it was religious at the start.

Different groups and orgs may not stick exactly to the original obviously.

'AA marks 1935 as its birth year when the newly sober Bill Wilson first met a detoxing alcoholic Dr. Bob Smith in Akron, Ohio. Wilson put forth that alcoholism was not a failure of will or morals, but an illness from which he had recovered as a member of the Christian revivalist Oxford Group (first known as First Century Christian Fellowship). '

'The Twelve Steps are intended as a non-coercive self-improvement program of admitting to powerlessness over alcohol and its damage, acknowledging and striving to correct personal failings, making of amends for past misdeeds, and continued spiritual development while helping other alcoholics to get sober through the Steps. The Steps suggest the healing aid of an unspecified God "as we understood Him", but are nonetheless accommodating to agnostic, atheist, and non-theist members.[4]'