AIBU - Is Alcoholics Anon pushing religion

[BabieDriver]

I have a hunch that a friend is "stuck" in 12 step programmes. He attends Alcoholics Anon and 2 other step groups. He has a lot of serious mental conditions and is starting NHS psychotherapy this month which is good news. He is very low and seems to get progressively worse doing lots of homework as part of the step work. It busies him up, keeps him thinking about his problems imo, and he hardly goes out and he's low most of the time. I've known him 3 years, but he's been in these programmes for over 10 years.

I never researched it before but I see that the wording of the 12 step for AA are mainly about God and that other 12 step orgs use roughly the same wording. I'm not against God, I believe in a God, but I don't follow any religion. I was brought up in a church religion and I strongly believe that support for vulnerable people and people with mental health issues should be secular - my church wanted to spread the word, it preached a lot of fear and I feel there is a similar angle in these steps and they are harmful and guilt-inducing, mentioning defects, atonement and giving up power.

Link: AA 12 Steps

My church liked people to stay for life. I hear that some people can stay in the step programmes all their lives too - vulnerable people. Yes, it does say that you don't have to believe, but if that's the case, why not re-write the steps and make it secular? Is it because religions are too powerful? I can't help but wonder how he would have fared in secular programmes that might not have an interest in keeping him long term? AIBU?

Why the concern about damage limitation?

This is one thread on a huge site.

12 steps is widespread. NHS. I mean there's no danger of this thread damaging the reach of the 12 step program!

Also plenty of addicts are capable of reading considering info. Especially any reading Mumsnet.

Russell Brand's explication of the 12 Steps, as he sees them, for those who are uncomfortable with the original wording:

1. Are you a bit fucked?
2. Could you not be fucked?
3. Are you, on your own, going to ‘unfuck’ yourself?
4. Write down all the things that are fucking you up or have ever fucked you up and don’t lie or leave anything out.
5. Honestly tell someone trustworthy about how fucked you are.
6. Well that’s revealed a lot of fucked-up patterns. Do you want to stop it? Seriously?
7. Are you willing to live in a new way that’s not all about you and your previous, fucked-up stuff? You have to.
8. Prepare to apologize to everyone for everything affected by your being so fucked-up.
9. Now apologize. Unless that would make things worse.

10. Watch out for fucked-up thinking and behavior and be honest when it happens. 11. Stay connected to your new perspective. 12. Look at life less selfishly, be nice to everyone, help people if you can.

HTH.

That's how I feel clumping.

To teach people with addictions seeking help that they are powerless to stop is pretty rubbish tbh and also not true.

And then once you've accepted you're powerless. Then comes handing over your life to God, being open and Frank with God. Praying and meditating on him. And trusting He will sort out your problems.

That feels like the antithesis of how to go about it. To me anyway.

And this bloke has been going for 10 years. It consumes his thoughts and time.

And he is still struggling with his MH.

Milky

A. That's not what they say
B. I'm glad it helped RB
C. Why is RBs version more relevant than the actual 12 steps?!

Posters were complaining that this thread might put people off AA, wanting to report the thread and have it deleted, berating people for having their own opinions, getting upset that somebody linked to the steps. I just think if they really wanted it to be a positive thread for AA, they'd explain why the Goddiness of the steps isn't necessarily an issue. Of course, it's possible that they can't do that very well, and all they can think of to try and get people to join is to try not to have people find out about the God stuff. Which is foolish, given it's right there on the AA site.

The reaction to this thread from some reminds me of the old stei**r schools threads.

No shut up they're great.

Thread deleted.

Basically:

AA isn't effective for very many people and is almost impossible to properly study for evidence of efficacy in order to make improvements.

Those for whom it is effective for have signed up to a very time-hungry, possibly lifelong commitment to a religiously-slanted organisation.

Significant numbers of people have been victimised within AA because its structure is such that it's an ideal hunting ground for predators, sexual and otherwise.

However, there do seem to be a few people for whom AA works when other treatment methods either haven't worked or are inaccessible to them. So, fair dos for those people I guess. It's just frustrating that the dominance of AA has potentially stymied other, safer, evidence-based interventions and approaches.

But @ClumpingBambooIsALie loads of posters have explained that it doesn’t need to be explicitly religious, although it can be taken that way if you wish. It’s not that hard to understand.

@NiceGerbil

The reaction to this thread from some reminds me of the old stei**r schools threads.

No shut up they're great.

Thread deleted.

Yep exactly. People should put their opinions and others can make their own minds up. Like with the meds example I gave above. I just can't conceive of a situation where I'd read a thread by someone concerned about whether meds are working well for their friend, and instead of giving my experience or looking to info, go wailing to the mods about other people being mean and nasty about my wonderful tablets.

I’m guessing you have very limited experience of AA @ClumpingBambooIsALie - and that’s fine! There’s plenty you can do to find out more about it if you’re interested, but just baldly making unsubstantiated claims about an organisation that has helped millions of people (for free!) is odd. If people don’t like it, and it doesn’t work they don’t have to stay in it.

@NiceGerbil

Milky

A. That's not what they say
B. I'm glad it helped RB
C. Why is RBs version more relevant than the actual 12 steps?!

It was just an example of how different people interpret the same steps, written in language that bothers some.

The OP is bothered by seeing the word 'God', not noticing the phrase 'God as we understood him' - ie, as we as individuals interpret this idea - or realising there are many cultures with no concept of God at all in their religions who also find benefits and recovery in AA, etc, and also many atheists in AA.

Also, how can you - not in AA or NA, like Russell is - say that's not what they say? How could you possibly know the nuances of meaning in these words that have no meaning to you?

*or linking to info

Which unsubstantiated claims Oz? The "thirteenth step"?

@milkyaqua

The OP knows nothing about AA - hasn't even got the name right. It's Alcoholics Anonymous, not Alcoholics Anon.

If she'd met her friend eleven years ago, rather than three - therefore, only knowing him in his sobriety - she might have a very different 'feeling' about it, this thing she doesn't know anything about.

Meanwhile, it is none of her business how he spends his time, or what other issues he may be feeling the need to address in other fellowships.

Goodness! The last time I got corrected for abbreviating something was from one of those teachers I was talking about.

That is a perfectly reasonable abbreviation too - I didn't want the title to be too long - you are being pedantic?

So you have told me off 3 times in once post above: "OP knows nothing/she doesn't know anything/it's none of her business." Oh no!

Unfortunately you won't get the satisfaction of goading me if this is something that entertains you. You're funny. Have a good night @milkyaqua!

In conclusion - some people find AA works for them (millions of people), some don’t.
In answer to your question about religion: no, it isn’t explicitly religious unless you want it to be.
Hope that helps.

@milkyaqua

Russell Brand's explication of the 12 Steps, as he sees them, for those who are uncomfortable with the original wording:

1. Are you a bit fucked?
2. Could you not be fucked?
3. Are you, on your own, going to ‘unfuck’ yourself?
4. Write down all the things that are fucking you up or have ever fucked you up and don’t lie or leave anything out.
5. Honestly tell someone trustworthy about how fucked you are.
6. Well that’s revealed a lot of fucked-up patterns. Do you want to stop it? Seriously?
7. Are you willing to live in a new way that’s not all about you and your previous, fucked-up stuff? You have to.
8. Prepare to apologize to everyone for everything affected by your being so fucked-up.
9. Now apologize. Unless that would make things worse.

10. Watch out for fucked-up thinking and behavior and be honest when it happens. 11. Stay connected to your new perspective. 12. Look at life less selfishly, be nice to everyone, help people if you can.

HTH.

That's perfect!

I'm not goading you, OP, only pointing out the facts. You don't know anything about AA. That is very clear.

I have tried to provide alternate and possibly helpful insights to you.

You seem only interested in people who will back you up on how terrible it is your friend/boyfriend is spending time in the dreaded AA, and from a position of knowing nothing about AA, positing wild theories. Perhaps you would rather your friend relapse? Have you spent much time around active alcoholism or drug addiction? It is not pretty.

That's perfect!

Good. I'm glad I was able to offer something.

'There’s plenty you can do to find out more about it if you’re interested,'

Yes indeed. Google has loads of info.

'Perhaps you would rather your friend relapse?'

Yikes.

And.

Wow. Nice!

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

Which unsubstantiated claims Oz? The "thirteenth step"?

If you mean re: efficacy, this article explains some of why it's so hard to get good data: www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irrationality-of-alcoholics-anonymous/386255/

Quote: Lance Dodes, a retired psychiatry professor from Harvard Medical School, looked at Alcoholics Anonymous’s retention rates along with studies on sobriety and rates of active involvement (attending meetings regularly and working the program) among AA members. Based on these data, he put AA’s actual success rate somewhere between 5 and 8 percent.

To be honest most substance use treatments have pretty shitty recovery rates though.

@ClumpingBambooIsALie

I also agree with your discomfort about the emphasis on the helplessness and impotence of the addict. They might as well explicitly say "you have to join AA and stay in it for the rest of your life, you're too weak to manage without us and leaving is an act of doomed arrogance".

Yes, for some people who are really broken and vulnerable and lacking in confidence, it could keep them like a hamster on a wheel. Personality plays a part - stronger personalities might adapt things to suit them.

The percentage recovering might be better in the UK, because we don't have the system of court-ordering people to attend AA meetings that the US has, which would no doubt result in lots of people attending who have no real interest in doing the programme.

@milkyaqua

I'm not goading you, OP, only pointing out the facts. You don't know anything about AA. That is very clear.

I have tried to provide alternate and possibly helpful insights to you.

You seem only interested in people who will back you up on how terrible it is your friend/boyfriend is spending time in the dreaded AA, and from a position of knowing nothing about AA, positing wild theories. Perhaps you would rather your friend relapse? Have you spent much time around active alcoholism or drug addiction? It is not pretty.

I've not claimed that I know anything about AA - you will see that in my original post. I never expected to be told off 4 times now - and there you go again! I've been polite to everyone else because everyone else was polite to me. I didn't come here spoiling for a fight. You seem so annoyed about everything and it's getting quite dramatic and you are insinuating he is my boyfriend and calling it dreaded AA.

Your words, your tone, not mine. Come on, it's not clever.