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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU - Is Alcoholics Anon pushing religion

161 replies

BabieDriver · 25/07/2021 23:59

I have a hunch that a friend is "stuck" in 12 step programmes. He attends Alcoholics Anon and 2 other step groups. He has a lot of serious mental conditions and is starting NHS psychotherapy this month which is good news. He is very low and seems to get progressively worse doing lots of homework as part of the step work. It busies him up, keeps him thinking about his problems imo, and he hardly goes out and he's low most of the time. I've known him 3 years, but he's been in these programmes for over 10 years.

I never researched it before but I see that the wording of the 12 step for AA are mainly about God and that other 12 step orgs use roughly the same wording. I'm not against God, I believe in a God, but I don't follow any religion. I was brought up in a church religion and I strongly believe that support for vulnerable people and people with mental health issues should be secular - my church wanted to spread the word, it preached a lot of fear and I feel there is a similar angle in these steps and they are harmful and guilt-inducing, mentioning defects, atonement and giving up power.

Link: AA 12 Steps

My church liked people to stay for life. I hear that some people can stay in the step programmes all their lives too - vulnerable people. Yes, it does say that you don't have to believe, but if that's the case, why not re-write the steps and make it secular? Is it because religions are too powerful? I can't help but wonder how he would have fared in secular programmes that might not have an interest in keeping him long term? AIBU?

OP posts:
BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 11:39

@ArabellaStrange - it's been very informative for me too. I generally think comments have been positive.

OP posts:
fucknuckle · 26/07/2021 11:46

i’m an alcoholic. i first got drunk aged 8 and spent my life as an alcoholic, gradually getting worse and worse until i was genuinely on the verge of dying.

i got sober with AA and have stayed that way for over 7 years. i was very sceptical at first as i am against any form of organised religion.

the thing is, if you strip out the bits that seem religious, what the steps actually are, are therapy. you work through all the shit that’s gone on in your life and then get rid of it. i got a sponsor, did the steps and it saved my life.

i have a higher power. it’s not the same as anyone else’s but anyone in AA who has got sober by working the steps has one.

even the Serenity Prayer that closes most meetings is prefaced with ‘using the word God as you do or will come to understand it’.

i dip in and out of meetings, but i still go because i will always be an alcoholic. i also live with mental illness and nobody has ever suggested that i stop taking my meds.

AA isn’t for everyone. but it does save lives. it’s not some sinister cult, it’s a lifeline for people who can’t manage their own lives any more due to their alcoholism.

Qwerty789 · 26/07/2021 11:47

@cassandre

I give up Qwerty, I've been as brutally honest as I know how to be about my experience with AA. If you perceive me to be lying, that's your prerogative.
You have not been in the slightest bit honest about the actual programme. I am not interested in your personal experience, other to understand why you are pretending that blatantly religious elements are somehow not.

I do not percieve you to be lying, it can be seen objectively that you are. I suggest you have another look at step 10

dangerrabbit · 26/07/2021 11:48

@NiceGerbil

None of this is new it's been in the news etc from time to time for years.

In the end if it suits you then good.

Googling just now I did see s few things about those who can't leave- it becomes a key part of their life. I don't think that's particularly healthy.

One obsessive behaviour (addiction) is replaced with another 'crutch'. To me that doesn't feel like getting over it.

I do sometimes wonder how it has become the usual treatment.

NHS had a link.

I was looking at the priory the other day they do it.

Good point, this critique of the alcoholic taking another "role in the game" was actually raised by the psychiatrist and psychotherapist Eric Berne in his 1964 book "games people play" which conceptualises the social role of alcoholism. More information is available here:

climbtothestars.org/archives/2002/09/22/games-people-play-alcoholicaddict/

fucknuckle · 26/07/2021 11:50

i would add that i was 41 when i got sober. i was a rock-bottom alcoholic who lost everything due to drink. i went from being a successful professional to a recluse in a grotty flat, bingeing for days then suffering withdrawals. alcohol withdrawal can kill you, it’s a serious business. i was in AA for about 6 months before i finally stopped drinking. when i got serious about getting sober and actually put the work in, i just never picked up that first drink again and haven’t since. i’m an alcoholic who is very, very grateful that AA was there when i had tried and failed to get sober any other way.

BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 11:51

@fucknuckle - thank you I really appreciate that and huge respect to you for how you've coped and the way you explained this.

OP posts:
BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 12:15

@Mantlemoose

Once you're an alcoholic you're one for life so would make sense you're a member of AA for life? I guess it's swapping one addiction for another.

If you really cared, you'd have researched what being an alcoholic means. You aren't one and can't understand. Leave it alone.

I did some research but there were mixed opinions about whether people stay for life with AA. I'm a bit weary of being told I don't care - these are just digs for the sake getting reactions - I'm not going there. Some people on this thread haven't stayed for life. It's really useful to hear everyone's lived experiences and hear all the positive experiences and viewpoints.
OP posts:
cassandre · 26/07/2021 13:18

You have not been in the slightest bit honest about the actual programme.

Sigh. I think part of the confusion here stems from people thinking that the 12 steps as they were written 80 or so years ago somehow sum up AA today. In fact they don't. AA has morphed hugely over the past century. There is a big gap between the way the original literature is written and the way AA members practice and understand the programme today. It would probably be better if this gap didn't exist, but it does. With all due respect, Qwerty, you don't seem to have been to AA meetings, so you know very little about how AA recovery works in real life, outside the literature. If you walk into any AA meeting and ask any AA member whether AA is a religious programme, they will tell you no. They may well tell you that 'the only requirement for membership is the desire to stop drinking', which is true. It's the only criterion. Whether or not you want to get a sponsor and work the steps, and how you work the steps, is completely up to you. Accepting the validity of the 12 steps is NOT a criterion for membership.

For some members, just going to meetings is enough; it's like a kind of group therapy. But if you do decide to work the steps, it's an intense programme of self-exploration. There's a lot of list-making. For example, you list everything you're resentful about. You list everything you've done that you're ashamed of -- and believe me, most alcoholics carry around an absolutely massive burden of shame. You share these lists with a trusted person. And it's incredibly cathartic. You look at all the resentment and shame, and realise you don't have to let it dominate your life. You don't abdicate responsibility, but you realise that you have the capacity to change if you want to. For me, one of the most powerful elements of AA is the belief that people can change: that your past doesn't have to condemn your future. That's where AA is rather like existentialist philosophy. (Note that it's all very focused on self-change though; it's not a recipe for political revolution, even though Russell Brand would like to make it that, ha.)

Not everyone wants to do that kind of intense self-examination, but for me, it was very freeing and life-changing. The thing is, just stopping drinking isn't enough. You need ways to deal with the anxiety and sadness that made you drink in the first place, and that's what the steps try to help you do. Some people might fare better with CBT-type strategies, which I think are used in programmes like Smart.

There's also a huge cross-over between mental illness and addiction (addiction is often an attempt at self-medication), and for some people, AA on its own isn't enough. They need professional therapy too, and/or medication. So I think it's good that the OP's friend is getting NHS psychotherapy. If he's dwelling for too long on the negative aspects of the step work (resentment/shame etc), that's not helpful either. The whole point is not to wallow, but to get all that stuff off your chest so that you can move on and live a freer, more authentic life.

Sorry for all the long posts. This thread has really made me reflect about the AA framework and how it looks to outsiders, especially non-alcoholics. I guess I've become so used to the inclusive ethos of the meetings I go to and the members I know, that I forget how full-on the religious language is when you look at it on its own, and how alienating that appears to some people. I do understand why it would be alienating, believe me!

Keepemguessing · 26/07/2021 13:45

I found AA cult-like and very unhelpful. What helped me was therapy with trained professionals, not carrying out the steps through my (lovely but amateur) sponsor.

AA has kept my XH sober for 6 years. I have yet to receive any apology from him about the way he treated me.

lljkk · 26/07/2021 14:27

AA isn't supposed to be evangelical. Programme of Attraction not Promotion.

Some people, mostly newbies, go obsessive about it but that's because of their character & stage of recovery, not that 12 step programmes encourage that.

I was wondering for people who have found recovery from alcoholism with other programmes, what they found was the core reasons why the alternative worked well for them. fwiw, one thing I like about 12-steps is that it doesn't necessarily require huge introspection beyond what you need to understand to stop the crappy attitudes that got you in trouble. 12-steppers spend a lot of time monitoring their inner demons, but that's about being honest with self not focusing on the past any more than necessary.

OliveToboogie · 26/07/2021 15:05

I attend AA. It was founded by 2 ppl who felt only God could break their addiction. However at ever meeting we talk about your Higher Power as you understand it. Many in the group agnostic and atheist.

CousinKrispy · 26/07/2021 15:05

You're welcome for the book rec, @cassandre. I really found it helpful and thought-provoking.

The info you've shared about AA here has been really helpful. I don't have a religious bone in my body, but I'm grateful for any programme that appears to be effective for recovery for some people ... obviously there is no one size fits all.

OliveToboogie · 26/07/2021 15:06

Part of AA steps is apologising for wrong and hurt you have caused. If you are not willing to do that then you are not enter g into the whole spirit and ethos of AA.

Nat6999 · 26/07/2021 15:41

Smart recovery looks at the reasons why people drink, offers CBT to help them look at their mental health & often why they drink, teaches ways to cope with cravings & helps them abstain from drinking. It does work & has a good track record for both drink & drug addiction.

Love2cycle · 26/07/2021 18:37

If you visit the shop section of the AA GB website, there is a leaflet available called 'The God Word' which addresses the issues OP is concerned about.
There are other leaflets which address concerns about medication, mental health and dual addictions if people want to find out more. Hope that helps.

NiceGerbil · 26/07/2021 18:45

@OliveToboogie

Part of AA steps is apologising for wrong and hurt you have caused. If you are not willing to do that then you are not enter g into the whole spirit and ethos of AA.
I have read a couple of threads on here with women whose been contacted after years by men who were abusive alcoholics and they have cut them out and got away from it.

They found it not beneficial to have the men get in touch suddenly in order to apologise etc.

Is there an alternative to this which does not adversely impact on others in some cases?

NiceGerbil · 26/07/2021 18:51

Just wanted to share that I have found this thread really useful on the whole.

It spurred me into getting in touch about things via my work insurance and I've been approved for psychotherapy so fingers crossed.

Many of you will be pleased to hear that the woman who did the assessment also recommended AA. She said for her the massive value was in hearing from others in the same boat and realising she was not alone.

Note- she specifically used the word non spiritual when she mentioned it!

If anyone feels like wishing me luck that would be gratefully received but no one has to obv :)

So thank you OP and everyone.

Qwerty789 · 26/07/2021 18:52

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Love2cycle · 26/07/2021 18:58

NiceGerbil
Yes, step 9 talks about making amends, EXCEPT when to do so would injure either myself or others. This is one reason why it's important to have a sponsor in AA. I really wanted to go and make amends to my ex, but he was settled down with a new girlfriend so it would not have been appropriate. My Sponsor helped me to see this. If I was left to my own devices I would have gone to make the amends and probably caused an issue for his new girlfriend.

BabieDriver · 26/07/2021 19:09

@NiceGerbil

Just wanted to share that I have found this thread really useful on the whole.

It spurred me into getting in touch about things via my work insurance and I've been approved for psychotherapy so fingers crossed.

Many of you will be pleased to hear that the woman who did the assessment also recommended AA. She said for her the massive value was in hearing from others in the same boat and realising she was not alone.

Note- she specifically used the word non spiritual when she mentioned it!

If anyone feels like wishing me luck that would be gratefully received but no one has to obv :)

So thank you OP and everyone.

That's really great to hear - very productive. Congratulations Smile. I wish you all the best with your psychotherapy. I'm glad they recommended AA. I've found this really helpful and useful. I can do a lot of searches on the internet and never really get the answers I am looking for and it's really helpful to get current views in real time.
OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 26/07/2021 19:18

That's good love :)

Love2cycle · 26/07/2021 19:19

The steps were written in the 1930's where it was very common for family's to go to church and have a faith in God. At the time, adding the words 'as you understand him' to the steps was fairly revolutionary against such a relegious back drop. They did this because they wanted to open AA up to atheists and other religions.
Like most people in AA, I'm very protective of the original 12 steps as they literally saved my life.
Any change in the original 12 steps would involve consulting every single AA member in the world. AA is actually run by its members, there is no one in charge who would be able to make a decision as big as changing the steps. The 12 steps belong to the worldwide fellowship of AA, but we've given permission to other 12 steps to make use of them (again at the consultation of all members).

NiceGerbil · 26/07/2021 19:22

That was the poster cash called love!

OP I hope your friend finds what he needs :)

Qwerty789 · 26/07/2021 19:24

@Love2cycle

The steps were written in the 1930's where it was very common for family's to go to church and have a faith in God. At the time, adding the words 'as you understand him' to the steps was fairly revolutionary against such a relegious back drop. They did this because they wanted to open AA up to atheists and other religions. Like most people in AA, I'm very protective of the original 12 steps as they literally saved my life. Any change in the original 12 steps would involve consulting every single AA member in the world. AA is actually run by its members, there is no one in charge who would be able to make a decision as big as changing the steps. The 12 steps belong to the worldwide fellowship of AA, but we've given permission to other 12 steps to make use of them (again at the consultation of all members).
Great, but for the love of God (as you understand it) can you please admit that you cannot pretend that the below steps are not overtly religious in and of themselves?

Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

  1. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

  1. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
MissConductUS · 26/07/2021 19:35

I've been sober for 27 years, and was active in AA for about the first 6 years. Many people learn what they need, get stable and move on. I moved house and just never bothered to find a new group.

AA has a lot of principles to guide members, one of which is "Take what you want and leave the rest". If there is a part of the program that you don't find useful, don't use it. The only thing that is mandatory is a desire to stop drinking. I never had a sponsor, for example, yet here I am, still sober decades later.

Your relationship to your higher power is between you and it, whateve it is, not you and your AA group. Many members are distinctly secular/atheist/agnostic. No one cares.

As prior posters have indicated, most of the therapeutic value comes from learning from others who have learned how to live happy lives without drinking. We are social animals, stronger together than apart.

Try not to worry too much about your friend. AA is not trying to lure him into a life of religiosity. It's trying to help him stay sober.