Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

It doesn’t bother me who is sitting outside a changing room as long as they are not in my changing room or my 11 year old daughters changing room.
I don’t see what the issue is ?

'I will sit quietly for a while, I’m quite interested in the incredibly strong views some females have about males and their place in society.'

While you're at it. You could look into the views on men and their place in society from Feminists in eg

So many!

Afghanistan
Southern USA States
Saudi
South Africa
Mexico
Sao Paulo
.......

Your message that if all the girls and women got their boobs out then everything would be much better for us is an interesting take. Take it global? It might get traction.

I can empathise OP, although I don’t think anyone is at fault. I took my DD 13 to buy her a bra and she was cringing just with me, my mum and the lady in M&S sorting her out, she’d have been mortified if there had been blokes sat around.

@NiceGerbil

Kowari are you heading down the route of that bloke on the telly who said women have breasts all the time because they look like arses and men like that...!

Not heading down any route. Just questioning calling them 'baby feeders'. I haven't fed a child from mine in over a decade yet they are still there. Would be much easier without them and I'm only a 30C.

I also live in the UK. I would cover my breasts for warmth whether or not I was wearing a bra, so they would still be a bit of a novelty when I got them out for a week in July.

@NiceGerbil

'If men wore their penises half hanging out of their trousers (the way some women dress up their breasts, butts and vulva-tight lycra) then women would stare'

Flaccid penises are not attractive. Rather pathetic.

No person who likes penises - people with penises - male or female. Finds flaccid dicks a tremendously erotic sight. Well maybe a few but it's got to be pretty niche.

Well done nicegerbil. You started to understand @beowolf1976!

Shallow though it is, the flaccid men's parts may not be an erotic sight.
Similarly, sagging breasts might not be an erotic site.
Therefore if women did let it all hang out, then yes... just as you Nicegerbil said flaccid is not erotic, men may not be so lecherous about breasts if women were naked all the time. It is a valid consideration. In naturist society, everyone is naked and leching stops.

The point is that women adorn themselves with (for example) push-up bras that draw attention to their breasts. Similarly, women's magazines sell with headlines like "how to look SEXY this summer".
So, (without making any reference to children/teenage girls - I am only talking about adults here), we women are blatantly sexualising our our image, so we cannot possibly expect men to ignore it. It takes two to tango.

And, by the way, in my previous message I never used the word flaccid when refering to penises. So to try to compare like-with-like, if men wore "push-up penis bras" with partial exposure bulging (like many women do with bras, panties, panty girdles, scrunch butt leggings, etc.) then yes, people (including women) would look at their groin. As it is, very many women do check out mens' groins in public. However, women are better at masking the fact that they look.

Also, yes there are lesbians who are attracted by breasts, as well as the whole person.
And no, men don't just look at breasts/bums/etc. they also are attracted to the whole person. If you don't believe me, look around, there are as many (in fact many more) physically 'ugly' people married than just 'hot babes'. This is because, although men do look at women in a sexual manner, they are real people with real emotions too. I am a trained counsellor, and I have seen more men than women break down into tears because they feel stereotyped at work and at home.

@Beowulf1976

I actually think you explained yourself exceptionally well. The problem lies when other people overlook the main point by picking holes in the use of words. To most people the reference to Africa is fully understood, but to some they get all worked up because they take details too literally. Or else they reimagine the sentence!

Back to the main posting: there's nothing wrong with a man waiting OUTSIDE the changing booths. The problem with society is that there is hypersensitivity to issues that might not exist. While paedophiles sadly are real, I don't know any men who would even consider looking at an underage girl. OK, a 20-year-old lad might look at an 18-year-old girl, but that's not underage and the age difference is small.

If the teenage girl was embarrassed, here are three solutions:

1. Visually: so keep the curtain closed! Problem solved.
2. Audibly: so speak discreetly. Problem solved.
3. Emotional intelligence: reassure the girl that the men are not listening. They don't care. What is more, it is more likely that other women or girls are listening (not the men). Come on, how often do men listen?!!! [Apologies men if that sounded sexist, but I am certain that men would not be listening to bra sizing conversations. Not their thing.]

@NiceGerbil

'Incidentally, if women don't want men to look at their breasts, why do they go to Bravissimo to buy colourful/frilly/enhancing/lifting/attention drawing bras, followed by wearing low cut tops?'

OPs DD is a child.

Bravissimo is famous for good fitting and a go to for those with bigger breasts.

Your idea that it was about buying, whatever you have in your head. And then drawing attention to her breasts. This child. Who was embarrassed.

You're sure that's what you want to say?

I know I derailed from the main topic. However, I said NOTHING ABOUT A CHILD. I was referring to women only, with no reference to the main thread, and trying to point out to you that the reason men look at breasts is because women 'gift wrap' them with fancy bras. I only used Bravissimo as an example. It did not mean exclusively Bravissimo. It was the concept of buying from any luxury lingerie store that is really what I meant. It would appear that you take some words very literally, rather than understand the metaphor of the intended message. As for the original topic, I am certain those men has zero interest in the sizing conversation anyway, so I can't believe that I got sucked into a debate about women's sexuality.

IIRC when there is a documentary about 'tribes in Africa' where the women are topless. The men usually have their buttocks exposed.

Through either a work or leisure capacity I have visited over half the countries in Africa. I spent time in the cities and in the rural areas, the latter being a more likely to see traditional tribal cultural practices, be it tattoos, ritual scaring, piercings and exposed breasts. Certainly from my experiences there was no correlation between topless women's and men exposing their arses. Typically the men wore kanzus (ankle length wrap) or just a pair of shorts. There was complete indifference to the women having their breasts out by the whole community, it was comfortable in the heat and made breast feeding easy.

@MakeMathsFun
“I don't know any men who would even consider looking at an underage girl.”

What?? Have you ever been a teenage girl?
I had men between the ages of 18 to 80 leering at my breasts when I was 14. There was no way on earth that they didn’t know I was underage.

@NiceGerbil

This is recent- last 10 years maybe?

The invisible barrier never used to be breached.

Yes absolutely

Are you two still at it?!

You know there are plenty of women reading this and thinking.. well I doubt they're being persuaded to your pov

'While paedophiles sadly are real, I don't know any men who would even consider looking at an underage girl. OK, a 20-year-old lad might look at an 18-year-old girl, but that's not underage and the age difference is small.'

Sam fox was on page 3 at 16...

'What?? Have you ever been a teenage girl?'

A good question!

I'm pleased to hear though that men can see through our clothes and so know if our bras are plain or tempting and therefore know whether to ogle or not.

And also that men and boys check ID before staring at/ commenting/ copping a feel.

Those points are very reassuring

@NiceGerbil

Are you two still at it?!

You know there are plenty of women reading this and thinking.. well I doubt they're being persuaded to your pov

'While paedophiles sadly are real, I don't know any men who would even consider looking at an underage girl. OK, a 20-year-old lad might look at an 18-year-old girl, but that's not underage and the age difference is small.'

Sam fox was on page 3 at 16...

Valid point about Sam Fox. FYI it was a woman at the Sun who chose her!

So what who chose her.

Her mum drove the whole thing as well.

Wouldn't have happened if men didn't like looking at the pictures.

Will your response be about lesbians or 'tribes in Africa' I wonder.

Also I'm not sure about the idea that men only look because of the tempting bras.

She didn't have any sort of bra on, tempting or otherwise.

You must know that your arguments are pretty lame, surely.

I would prefer not to have the seating/waiting area right outside the lingerie session of the store.

Even if it was a couple of meters away it would be nice. Don’t really want men or women staring (or not staring) at the smalls you buy!

@NiceGerbil

So what who chose her.

Her mum drove the whole thing as well.

Wouldn't have happened if men didn't like looking at the pictures.

Will your response be about lesbians or 'tribes in Africa' I wonder.

For once I actually I agreed with you. I said it was a valid point. (I only mentioned the woman who chose her as it was an interesting point with some relevance.)

So no need to talk again about lesbians and tribes again (which originally came from Beowolf, not me. I only tried to explain B's point because I got the impression you didn't understand it).

@NiceGerbil

Also I'm not sure about the idea that men only look because of the tempting bras.

She didn't have any sort of bra on, tempting or otherwise.

You must know that your arguments are pretty lame, surely.

Its not about the immediate event of wearing or not wearing a bra. It is the fact that in cultures were nudity is the norm, leching is significantly less (or non-existant). For example, if you go to a German sauna, everyone is totally naked, men, women and children together. There is no sexuality in such nudity and people don't look at each others' genitals. [If someone wears a swimsuit, then they stare!] On the other hand, if you put a photo of a naked person in a newspaper in a society wear the norm is to wear clothes, then people look at it. As for men looking at Sam Fox when she was 16, did the readers know she was 16? Or might they have reasonably assumed that the newspaper was not paedophyllic?

Happy to discuss the points you've made, I'm really interested to understand why you're linking fancying 16yo with paedophilia though?

@NiceGerbil

Also I'm not sure about the idea that men only look because of the tempting bras.

She didn't have any sort of bra on, tempting or otherwise.

You must know that your arguments are pretty lame, surely.

As for my 'lame' arguments (which are rewordings of Beowolf's arguments), don't just take our opinion. Read this: buzz.bournemouth.ac.uk/2020/01/is-naturism-the-solution-to-low-body-confidence/ Then go to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Naturist_Federation to see that there are millions of people across many countries that share this viewpoint. What is more, because naturists actually experience it, they are more qualified than either you, me or Beowolf, to say that nudity is not sexual in such cultures.

It would be really helpful if you could answer the question about fancying 16yo to make sure we aren't at cross purposes.

Most teen girls are embarrassed by a lot of things - buying tampons/pads, underwear, the mere mention of possible boyfriends by relatives... A little embarrassment at that age is normal, and frankly something we all have to learn to cope with at some point. I was definitely embarrassed about buying tampons in front of boys/men as a teen, does that mean men should not have been allowed in shops that sell them? 🙄

And before anybody says it AGAIN - they were OUTSIDE of the changing rooms, not in them. Nothing could be seen. If the staff were asking her bra size loudly enough for people sitting outside to hear, that's a different issue in my opinion - and one to be addressed by the indiscreet staff not people waiting for their partners.

And women's only hairdressers / the idea that men could only ever be in a shop with a woman because he's being dragged along? Surely these people are joking?

Also just wanna add that I've been abused by men, didn't expect all men to stay out of my vicinity in case their presence offended me - you can't live your life like that. (And whilst I appreciate that at first, it can mean being scared of them, that is an issue to be dealt with in therapy). Also the VAST majority of sexual aggression/abuse etc. comes from men the victim already knows.

I was so embarrassed by tampons for many years always waited for a female member of staff to take my payment. Yet before my marriage walked into wh Smith to purchase the joy of sex so that I had some idea of what to do. Mums Cosmo

@NiceGerbil

It would be really helpful if you could answer the question about fancying 16yo to make sure we aren't at cross purposes.

I didn't understand your 'fancying 16yo' comment. I thought it was sarcasm, or something. If an adult fancies a 16 year old, is it not paedophile behaviour?