Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@NiceGerbil

You have some very narrow minded and dangerous views. I won’t be interacting with you again. Have a nice life.

@NiceGerbil

'Completely dismissing anyone else who also have a thing about breasts… wait, if they’re a woman it isn’t the same? Why not?'

I think you could have a think and maybe a read etc and draw a conclusion yourself?

I cannot quote your previous reply as you quoted me even though I was talking to someone else. Not you.

Please don’t quote me again, I don’t wish to interact with you any longer.

Narrow minded and totally sexist and feminist views are dangerous. I’d rather steer clear of you, thank you.

Even more interesting!

'CULTURE of tribes in Africa,'

Africa eh? Big place. Vast differences between countries and within countries.

Which tribes do you have in mind?

Oh that's a shame. I was interested to hear your views, because they were unusual to me.

Narrow minded, sexist.

Feminist views are dangerous.

Also lesbians are as lecherous as men and tribes in Africa.

I would have liked to hear more so that's a shame.

Where i work a man saying he is presenting as a woman can walk right into the changing rooms .
And if the girls or women there dont like it, they move out, not him.

Sorry i meant identifying as a woman.

What sort of setting is that?

Retail

It's all pretty rubbish.

The OP is about men outside though.

And I for one can understand why the DD was uncomfy.

Boys and girls that age are very often extremely self conscious. It's normal.

It is normal. To me anyway. As a sales assistant in a shop, I'm constantly amazed at the women who go shopping with their husbands and the husband stands outside the fitting room doors, then the wife opens her curtain and the guy walks right into the fitting rooms to see her, whilst there's lots of other women and girls trying their stuff on with curtains maybe not fully closed as they didn't expect a 50 yr old man to charge right in....

I'd be telling dh to eff off if he did that but then again he isnt a fucking idiot

This is recent- last 10 years maybe?

The invisible barrier never used to be breached.

@beowolf1976 - I have enjoyed following your well structured arguments.

@nicegerbil - I have enjoyed yours too, but I feel that you have misunderstood a number of beowolf's points - or at least have read them in a different context to their intended purpose. For example, B was trying to say (I think) that both Lesbians and men can be attracted to a women's breasts. So, your argument against men's lechery should apply equally to lechery from any person, regardless of their biological gender.

Incidentally, if women don't want men to look at their breasts, why do they go to Bravissimo to buy colourful/frilly/enhancing/lifting/attention drawing bras, followed by wearing low cut tops? If I didn't want men to look at my breasts, I would wear a comfortable non-provactive bra and button up my blouse. If men wore their penises half hanging out of their trousers (the way some women dress up their breasts, butts and vulva-tight lycra) then women would stare. Not only that, the men would be described as pervs. So why is it ok for women to display their intimate biology, yet not ok for men? Also, men then take all this flack for looking too! I feel for men in this contradictory argunment.

Those who have read the full thread will know that it appeared in the Daily Mail. To those of you saying the OP is being unreasonable - how do you feel that the majority of comments about the thread in the Daily Mail also say that? Racist, misogynistic Daily Mail readers/commenters are also saying OP is BU and her and her DD should just “get over it”. I’d be horrified if I shared a viewpoint with the type of person who comments in the Daily Mail.

@nicegerbil

Beowolf may not have explained herself very well, so I will try to decypher it for you here: in tribal cultures where women are topless (as may be seen in parts of Africa and the Amazon), the norm is to have naked breasts and the men don not appear to lech over them. In other cultures (like in 21st Century USA) where women are expected to cover their nipples, men are known to lech. Given these opposite facts, B was trying to say that perhaps if we all let our breasts hang out, hang down and be naturally exposed, then the leching might stop. It was not an attack on African cultures or lesbians.
Consequently, B seemed to feel frustrated that her point was not understood. From this and a spiral argument B decided to stop to prevent any further confusion.

@stuckhere2021

You made an interesting point about Daily Mail readers, but it was not valid. Here's an example:

Johnny is an idiot who reads the Daily Planet. He also eats apples every day. I am an ardent apple eater, but hat does not mean that I agree with the Daily Planet, or Johnny on other matters.

In other words, a person can share a viewpoint (either apple frenzy, or believing a writer is unreasonable) without necessarily sharing other beliefs, such as racism.

It may be true that it was published in the Daily Mail, but it is not valid to assume that a shared viewpoint cannot be independent.

Gawd really? Crikey.

'For example, B was trying to say (I think) that both Lesbians and men can be attracted to a women's breasts. So, your argument against men's lechery should apply equally to lechery from any person, regardless of their biological gender.'.

Attracted to 'breasts'. Not people with them. Just the breasts by themselves irrespective of who or what they are attached to. Breasts attached to a wall? Phwoar.

Weird phrasing.

Anyway. To imagine that sex related behaviour - poor sex related behaviour. Is driven by liking certain body parts. And is no different between men and women. Is nonsense. I know that, you know that.

You think that gay men, and straight women have the same behaviours when it comes to men? Erm... Back in the day IME for example the club's. Not really very much the same. You'll have to trust me on that.

Claiming that women and men commit the same level of ... Anything from being really creepy to sex offences. Well I mean. You can think what you want. But it's nonsense.

'Incidentally, if women don't want men to look at their breasts, why do they go to Bravissimo to buy colourful/frilly/enhancing/lifting/attention drawing bras, followed by wearing low cut tops?'

OPs DD is a child.

Bravissimo is famous for good fitting and a go to for those with bigger breasts.

Your idea that it was about buying, whatever you have in your head. And then drawing attention to her breasts. This child. Who was embarrassed.

You're sure that's what you want to say?

[quote MakeMathsFun]@nicegerbil

Beowolf may not have explained herself very well, so I will try to decypher it for you here: in tribal cultures where women are topless (as may be seen in parts of Africa and the Amazon), the norm is to have naked breasts and the men don not appear to lech over them. In other cultures (like in 21st Century USA) where women are expected to cover their nipples, men are known to lech. Given these opposite facts, B was trying to say that perhaps if we all let our breasts hang out, hang down and be naturally exposed, then the leching might stop. It was not an attack on African cultures or lesbians.
Consequently, B seemed to feel frustrated that her point was not understood. From this and a spiral argument B decided to stop to prevent any further confusion.[/quote]
You are spot on.

I suffer with brain damage, from medical neglect, and that causes cognitive issues, aphasia, language issues, and the insanely annoying inability to clearly state what my brain is actually thinking on the other side of the damaged bit. My consultant has also said that it seems to mimic Asperger’s in many ways, and also Alzheimer’s in many others.

Thankfully you were on my wavelength, and able to decipher my meanings behind everything I actually said.

I’m still banging my head against a wall to try and work out why on Earth NiceGerbil (for someone who is angrily against lecherous men looking at her and is heavily defending teen girls, her username kind of massively contradicts) deciphered those things from what I was saying. It is almost as if she did so on purpose.

I chose to stop responding because I realised no amount of me attempting to get her to see what I was actually saying, would get her to see what I was actually saying. Life is way too short and far too precious to spend time on people who purposely quote arguments that were not even there.

Thank you for your clear deciphering of what I meant. It has provided me with reassurance that I was not remotely saying what she claimed, but then still, I feel she was purposely trying to make me look very bad. Not sure why, I only created my account last night to voice my opinion on the matter, wishing I’d never bothered, tbh. My fiancé has Asperger’s and even he felt it would not end well.

It has shown me that I am indeed better off not being in this kind of setting. My fiancé thinks I’d be safer away from the internet at all, but unlike him I do thrive in social areas, sometimes.

He prefers to keep off social media and certainly not interact, he would be very happy to never have to deal with humans. (apart from my Son and I, and his parents) Prior to my illnesses, I did like to socialise a little, “friends” who were active in sharing my company, soon dwindled the less I was able to go out and act like a normal being.

I should have known much better than to join Mumsnet, especially with how this sandbox planet is progressing.

I will sit quietly for a while, I’m quite interested in the incredibly strong views some females have about males and their place in society.

I don’t remotely agree or believe the same, but it is certainly interesting and almost enjoyable to watch them spiral…

Thank you for your support, it is greatly appreciated.

' I would wear a comfortable non-provactive bra and button up my blouse.'

Yes it's definitely the bra that's the problem. Not to do with the breasts.

Although. I thought it was the breasts? In and of themselves. That were attractive. And made lesbians ogle?

That doesn't seem to add up.

'If men wore their penises half hanging out of their trousers (the way some women dress up their breasts, butts and vulva-tight lycra) then women would stare'

Flaccid penises are not attractive. Rather pathetic.

No person who likes penises - people with penises - male or female. Finds flaccid dicks a tremendously erotic sight. Well maybe a few but it's got to be pretty niche.

'Beowolf may not have explained herself very well, so I will try to decypher it for you here: in tribal cultures where women are topless (as may be seen in parts of Africa and the Amazon), the norm is to have naked breasts and the men don not appear to lech over them.'

Amendment from tribes in Africa. To parts of Africa.

An improvement I suppose.

IIRC when there is a documentary about 'tribes in Africa' where the women are topless. The men usually have their buttocks exposed. Presumably based on previous comments you would suggest that those who are sexually attracted to men only see bums as sexy if they are usually covered. I think you need to switch, again, to considering gay men. Remember that bloke out of erasure and his backless trousers? Canvass on some gay sites I suggest. Explain your theory and see what the response is.

'Given these opposite facts, B was trying to say that perhaps if we all let our breasts hang out, hang down and be naturally exposed, then the leching might stop'

Uh-huh.

You are suggesting that in the UK right now. The way to get rid of the male fetishisation of breasts.

Is for girls from puberty up (like the OPs daughter- this thread is about her). To go around topless. Women as well. All of us.

This is the best way to stop men and boys harrassing etc etc us.

What a great plan.

'
I’m still banging my head against a wall to try and work out why on Earth NiceGerbil (for someone who is angrily against lecherous men looking at her and is heavily defending teen girls, her username kind of massively contradicts)'

You think that women being pissed off about the range of sexually motivated things that we experience. Often starting very young.

Is a bad thing?

Interesting.

'Not sure why, I only created my account last night to voice my opinion on the matter, '

You created an account on MN specifically to share your opinion about pubescent girls breasts and bra shops?

Ok.

' My fiancé has Asperger’s and even he felt it would not end well.'

???!!!