Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@unsureofneighbour

Have you ever wondered why so many men (too) seem guarded?
The difference is that the 'guarded men' tend to remain silent because complaining would undermine their expected masculinity further.
When a women catcalls a man, stares at him, pinches his bottom or goes for a full-on frontal grope, strangely it goes unrecorded.
I agree that nobody should feel sexually threatened (or threatened in any other way also), but it is not just men who are the aggressors. There are many women too who cajole, molest and/or manipuilate. So please stop blaming "all men" when its not all men, but actually women too.

Can we be sure that the teen was uncomfortable because of the men? Afterall, she was "already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting".
Maybe it was the mother who was more uncomfortable. Did anyone ask the girl her personal opinion in the matter?
And what is all this fuss about getting a fitting? When I go to a shoe shop and get my feet measured, I don't get all coy that opposite sexes are watching me and taking notes that I'm 4E. A bra is no different. The only difference is that the media loves to suppress body image confidence which leads to young girls' worrying about their bodies. It is that which causes unnecessary embarrassments. The men who wait for their wives are not paying any attention to it.
How often do you hear women ask, "do you think my bum looks too big in this?"? Then compare this with how often you hear a man ask, "do you think my bum looks too big in this?". The reality has two contradictory notions: (1) self-body-awareness and criticism based on perceived judgments; and (2) more women than men wear tight fitting or revealing garments. these two facts are in direct conflict with one-another. Quite frankly men are not as obsessed as many women might imply. In fact, judging by these blogs and magazines, it is the women who impose critique heavily on women. For example, if a female celebrity doesn't shave her armpits, there's a massive assault, akin to bullying. Who gives anyone the right to judge or condemn? In this example the threat does not come from men.
My point is that threats come from all sides. However, a man sitting passively waiting in a chair outside a changing room is no more a threat than a lump of coal. Posters of models with fake smiles and tattood eyebrows on the other hand add to emotional feelings of inadequacy amongst many young women (and girls) who succumb to the peer pressure of contemporary fashion to 'fit in'. It is this that leads to 'embarrassment' about bra sizes, not men in chairs!

I always thought that men were more at risk of sexually motivated crime from other men. I'm sure I read that somewhere.

MakeMathsFun

I'm trying to remember situations like you describe- can you say how the guardedness can be noticed? Is it when a man is alone eg in s lift with a woman type thing?

I honestly don't think I've ever had a man seem, well scared I suppose.

I'm not taking the piss etc I'm genuinely interested.

If it makes me remember some situations I can be more considerate in future.

'When I go to a shoe shop and get my feet measured, I don't get all coy that opposite sexes are watching me and taking notes that I'm 4E. A bra is no different. '

You think that in society breasts are considered in the same way as feet?

Are you sure?!

@MakeMathsFun

Can we be sure that the teen was uncomfortable because of the men? Afterall, she was "already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting". Maybe it was the mother who was more uncomfortable. Did anyone ask the girl her personal opinion in the matter? And what is all this fuss about getting a fitting? When I go to a shoe shop and get my feet measured, I don't get all coy that opposite sexes are watching me and taking notes that I'm 4E. A bra is no different. The only difference is that the media loves to suppress body image confidence which leads to young girls' worrying about their bodies. It is that which causes unnecessary embarrassments. The men who wait for their wives are not paying any attention to it. How often do you hear women ask, "do you think my bum looks too big in this?"? Then compare this with how often you hear a man ask, "do you think my bum looks too big in this?". The reality has two contradictory notions: (1) self-body-awareness and criticism based on perceived judgments; and (2) more women than men wear tight fitting or revealing garments. these two facts are in direct conflict with one-another. Quite frankly men are not as obsessed as many women might imply. In fact, judging by these blogs and magazines, it is the women who impose critique heavily on women. For example, if a female celebrity doesn't shave her armpits, there's a massive assault, akin to bullying. Who gives anyone the right to judge or condemn? In this example the threat does not come from men. My point is that threats come from all sides. However, a man sitting passively waiting in a chair outside a changing room is no more a threat than a lump of coal. Posters of models with fake smiles and tattood eyebrows on the other hand add to emotional feelings of inadequacy amongst many young women (and girls) who succumb to the peer pressure of contemporary fashion to 'fit in'. It is this that leads to 'embarrassment' about bra sizes, not men in chairs!

Some very interesting points in here. I have to agree that female self consciousness comes more from the sources you describe.

The bravissimo I went to the other day had sofas upstairs and also near the basement changing rooms. DH waited and did a crossword on the upstairs ones, I waited on the downstairs ones until an attendant was ready. Should I have checked if his crossword was full of obscenities?

Recent posts have been really eye opening.

I had no idea that girls and some women often felt self conscious about breasts for no reason at all! And that no one else sees them as any different to feet!

Gosh women and girls really ARE silly aren't we!

Thanks for that info. Really useful!

@NiceGerbil

"You think that in society breasts are considered in the same way as feet?"

Thank you for your response.
Both no and yes! On the surface, feet seem to be relatively ignored. However, there are a great many of people with sexual foot fetishes.

Nonetheless, my point was meant to illustrate how unimportant it is to worry about what people think of our breasts. They are no more important than feet (except of course for feeding infants). Still, there are both men and women who are preoccupied with them. And if the media didn't rant on so much about fashion and perfection, then perhaps no girl/woman would be embarrassed about them. Everyone is unique with different sized shapes and sizes, which all contribute to a wonderfully diverse spectrum of beauty. Let's celebrate that rather than worrying about it.

Ironically, bras were originally invented to sexually allure (rather than support purely on health grounds) and the first women in bras were often condemned by other women for being 'slutty'. 100 years later this became inverted and instead not wearing a bra became the taboo.

When the Suffragettes were burning their bras, it was more than signalling for equality. It was also a statement to women to be free of the shackles of judgement from both men and women.

I had no idea that there were men were preoccupied with them!

Well every day's a school day!

The suffragettes burnt their bras?!

Well I never. Feminists eh!

or when the attempt of sarcasm fell so short and looks so sad... ouch.

@NiceGerbil

Sorry this has become a derail from the original post.

1. Re: sexually motivated crime - true, and it is a horrible truth. For men who are not such predators though, this statistic tends to make them feel unfairly labelled. If you are a timid, non-predator type of person, then not only do you not fall under this category of male stereotype, but you are more likely to feel threatened by all kinds of situations.

2. Re: how this "how the guardedness [of men] can be noticed?"
   From an early age, boys and men tend to be brought up with expectations of 'manliness'. "Be a brave soldier!", "Don't be a girl!", "Boys don't cry., etc. Not only is this sexist toward girls, but is equally sexist towards boys. At its simplest, this causes boys to learn to hide their tears. As such men are forced to cry in private, for example. This perpetuates the myth that men don't cry, and as a result boys learn to mask their fears. Subsequently, nearly all men are 'guarded' about their negative emotions, so it indeed becomes very hard to recognize.

I don't know if I can answer your question about how to notice it. However, if you can get talking to a man (any man!) and I mean real talking, you might be surprised and learn much more. Many men have opened up to me about this, but many will prefer to remain silent. This is because this 'trauma' runs deep.

Here's a little anecdote. In the 1960s, my uncle worked in a factory where the workforce was 95% female. Every time he walked through the typing office he had to run (or at least walk fast) for he was terrified of being 'debagged' [trousers forcebly removed - which was common practice at that time]. There was a hoard mentality of sexual aggression that thought it OK to gang-strip an non-consenting male. Verbal comments were lewd too and his fear was genuine. Nonetheless, he remained silent for fear of losing his job and his perceived masculinity. Only later in life did he tell this story.

So, yes, while indeed it is horrible for women to feel intimidated, we must not overlook the fact that men are in a similar position, but are guarded about it. OK, I admit that the story of one man may not be representative of all men, but I myself have known more men than women who have felt intimidated (but maybe this is because I have more male customers) , but I guess it depends where you are. For example, at an alcohol-fuelled football match, sadly anyone (female or male) could feel unsafe from the male 'hunters'.

Hen nights in the street can bear a similar threat to a young man (or woman). When I see a pack of drunk women carrying giant inflatable penises, I feel for any man walking past. I can't imagine a man carrying a giant vulva on a stag do, but maybe it happens too? But yes, a man alone in a lift with a woman could feel guarded too, but more often than not the fear is a fear of being considered a threat. The concern that this woman might be worried then makes the man guarded, coy, silent or awkward. Then the silence or awkwardness can be considered creepy.

In short, men mask their tears and fears. Both exist as much as women's do, but they are hidden behind layers of 'learned' masculinity. Guarded men are. And in a male underwear department, men get in and out quickly because underwear departments (both female and male garments) are terrifying places for most men! So when a man sits waiting for his wife beside a changing room, he often feels guarded and intimidated by those women who challenge his presence with a sneer, a gaze or a comment. There is hyper-sensitivity both ways.

You think it's more important to call someone sad, than acknowledge that you posted nonsense?

That was to pleased, the poster who said that girls teenagers being embarrassed about their changing bodies, in this case breasts, is pretty silly, because to the general public breasts are not seen any differently to feet.

Maybe the Feminists should have burnt their shoes? One to ponder.

Tbh I think you are sexualising an issue that is not even an issue. If the men were there letching, it would be blatantly obvious. Saying it is not appropriate when it was around the corner is rather stretching it. Would you rather men stayed out of all the shops your Daughter wants to buy something in?

For all you know they could be single Dads trying to be the Mum when it comes to buying their Daughters’ clothing. They might not have had a choice.

They could all also not even identify as male. They could all also be gay and not remotely interested in the female form.

You said you knew that your Daughter was uncomfortable so perhaps you should have done the handing over and asking for her?

Tbh, I think you’ll actually find that most of the men waiting for partners, daughters, whoever, felt a lot more uncomfortable than your Daughter did.

I agree with @Beowulf1976 - if we don’t make a big deal of this, neither will others, or our daughters.

@StarlightLady

I agree with *@Beowulf1976* - if we don’t make a big deal of this, neither will others, or our daughters.

Nobody needs to make a big deal about it for teen girls to feel uncomfortable. Walking out to men who have just heard what sort of support your greats need and what size you are is uncomfortable. It's worse when you're a teen - my personal experience - but only marginally.

Are posters also not aware that "teen porn" is one of the most popular porn searches and that most men watch porn? Like, mumsnetters husbands who are innocently sitting on the sofa being bored and uncomfortable (but choose to stay put), many of them will be fapping to tern porn too. Not according to Mumsnetters, just according to the massive, massive popularity of such sites.

If the only men in lingerie shops were there because they were carers or solo parents, we'd not have this thread. Women aren't stupid, we see when a man is there because he genuinely needs to be and while we can't tell which man is a carer or a solo parent, we can be sure that the majority hogging the sofas definitely aren't - there are simply too many of them.

@StarlightLady

I agree with *@Beowulf1976* - if we don’t make a big deal of this, neither will others, or our daughters.

Yes. I agree too.

@Nitgel

I dont get men sitting around changing rooms anywhere. Just go to another shop! I hate that John lewis has a sofa for then to sit on while they wait right outside the changing rooms too.

I assume the sofa is for any unfortunate being that gets dragged round clothing shops and hates it, and the luxury of sitting comfortable on a sofa is kind of a prize for being that person who is willing to be dragged around.

Hypothetically if you took your Son to a changing room in Top Man (first shop that came to my head, it has been 5 years since I last begrudgingly went to Merry Hill) and there's women sitting directly outside the changing rooms, would you immediately say it is inappropriate?

Would you assume they were there to letch over the men? Particularly any 15 year old boys?

Be realistic 99% of the time the poor men sitting on those sofas are sitting there because they are going to be paying for, or at the least carrying said bought items.

They are probably insanely grateful to the person who invented the very first pocket sized computer so they at least have something to do whilst sitting there awkwardly. 😂

Back when I bought clothing, (way before I ended up disabled) I'd have my fiancé there so I could try it on, step outside the cubicle and ask his opinion, he wasn't there to letch over the better looking women, or to letch at a young girl buying a bra. Having Asperger's it was most probably top slot in the 100 of his worst places to be list. Yep, he concurs. 🙃

It concerns me how this mad sandbox we call Earth is going.

We have a multicultural society, yet there are those who wish to re-segregate - and I'm not talking about white people, either.

And there's a scary amount of women who feel that men are inappropriate or perverted in various very natural or normal places for them to be...

I won't use the term that is given to this type of extreme feminist as it is offensive, even to those not holding the title. But I will briefly mention that if it was down to them, men would not be in the same part of the planet, or even same planet as women.

Or they'd only be there in a highly submissive only role...

runs and hides

My daughter and I are bravissimo ladies, and have been since they opened.
They are brilliant an the waiting area is in a way that you can't see into the changing rooms.
I just don't get it. What is the difference between men waiting there or any other changing room?
The store sells quality lingerie for the comfort of the wearer.
Often my husband came into the changing room as I have a disability and he was helping me.. He has also bought me lingerie, so why not have men. They cannot see anything.
Men realise women wear underwear and use sanitary protection.
Yes your daughter is young but their changing rooms are good. Do you have a problem with trans or other using the shop?
I just think it is ridiculous.

You really believe that most of the men sitting in lingerie shops are sitting there with soaking up for future fantasies. You do know the staff would clock them. Lady you need therapy 🙄

@daretodenim

“Are posters also not aware that "teen porn" is one of the most popular porn searches and that most men watch porn? Like, mumsnetters husbands who are innocently sitting on the sofa being bored and uncomfortable (but choose to stay put), many of them will be fapping to tern porn too. Not according to Mumsnetters, just according to the massive, massive popularity of such sites.

If the only men in lingerie shops were there because they were carers or solo parents, we'd not have this thread. Women aren't stupid, we see when a man is there because he genuinely needs to be and while we can't tell which man is a carer or a solo parent, we can be sure that the majority hogging the sofas definitely aren't - there are simply too many of them.”

Has no one yet noticed that you literally just said most of the partners in this forum are paedophiles? Or only just not paedos because the girl happens to be “no longer jail bait”?!

That was for Denim quote failed

@justasking111

You really believe that most of the men sitting in lingerie shops are sitting there with soaking up for future fantasies. You do know the staff would clock them. Lady you need therapy 🙄

Perfect. 🙃