To wonder why MN is so unpleasant about SAHMs?

[crinklyfoil]

While I know there are cases when women aren’t married and don’t own property and are in a vulnerable position, I’m not talking about posters who are concerned about women.

I’m talking about posters who believe that SAHMs have no say in finances, should ‘get a job’ and are somehow lazy.

A FT childcare place costs around £800 a month. If you have more than one child, realistically for many women, ‘getting a job’ will mean working at a loss. Not to mention problems with shift work at the lower paid end of the spectrum (retail work and care work.)

Is it really so awful that having a SAHM might just work really well for some families? That some women might thoroughly enjoy it and that it’s part of a mutually beneficial relationship in the context of the whole family?

Or should everyone just get a job, regardless of how miserable and poor it makes the whole family?!

My DH was our SAHP . I've always worked. It's interesting to see people's opinions on division of labour change when they find that out.
Honestly, I think some women come on here to vent their feelings about men in general. Whether that's valid is probably down to the individual but I do get the feeling that sometimes men just can't win with some posters

I've never seen this. If anything, I see loads of women crusading for SAHM's and telling them to stay involved in their household finances so their husband doesn't take the piss.

Totally agree with you OP. I've noticed it's often the same posters too, which tells us something.

I think the criticism of women by women must surely lie in people's own insecurities. So posters who write unhelpful comments about wohm not 'raising their children' must be feeling something about their decision not to provide financially. Whereas posters who say things like 'being a sahm is a waste' or 'leeching off their husband/the state' must have some insecurities about using childcare and not being there during their working hours.

It's really sad that some people can't accept different families go about things in different ways

And for what it's worth...I don't take home a loss because my husband and I split the childcare bill about 65/35 with him paying more because he's the higher earner.

OP we see numerous posts here daily about marriages falling apart and women posting for advice how to handle the split financially- they are more then often in a very vulnerable position and the advice tends to stir towards getting as much financial support from the ex as possible plus top it up with some benefits. Lots of women post about how they have to search for minimum wage positions because they’ve put their career on hold to be SAHP and now they HAVE TO go back to work.
So I think the negativity you’re describing might be people trying to offer some constructive advice and say you should have a career because even if your household operates at a ‘loss’ now it is an investment into your future earning potential. So in your example the woman earns £1100 but in 5 years’ time can start earning £2000, rather than start at the bottom again.
Considering that the chance of her marriage ending is now over 50% it’s not rocket science.

Another thing that might be negatively perceived is this acceptance from women that they are the lower earners therefore they should stay at home. Why not share it and have two years each as a SAHP?
Women also need to stop accepting their lower earning potential IMO. I think men are not as willing to be the main supporter as a lot women think and you can see numerous threads about financial resentment and women having to justify spending money.

I also think some people think women are generally looking for excuses to stay home with the kids and as a pp said ‘that’s fine but be honest about it ‘.

Hi OP

If you're referring to the thread where the husband spent half the savings on IVF and a lot of the responses were along the lines of 'it's his money, get a job if you don't like it'...

I'm pretty sure on that one it was jealousy about the earnings. I've seen similar responses on threads where people have had babies with a millionaire who has only given the basic legal minimum maintenance which worked out to a tiny tiny percentage of their income, and most people's responses were 'it's more than I get, be grateful, if you want more then get a job'.

I think when posters earn a lot, or are married to a partner who earns a lot, people get a bit jealous, there are always a lot of 'count yourself lucky' and 'I'd love to be in your position' posts and people seem to forget their original principles.

To me, the IVF savings thread was bizarre, mumsnet is meant to be filled with feminists but apparently if your husband is a high earner then you should just be grateful to be married to him and he can do what he wants with 'his' money. I think sometimes posters would get a very different response if they changed the financial details.

Of course this isn't the only negative thing I've seen about SAHMs and I've also seen stuff against SAHP

I'm just amazed more people don't distinguish between a SAHP of babies & toddlers, and a SAHP of school aged children. Wraparound care is a fraction of the cost of full time care for a baby or toddler, and while I understand many people will prefer part time work to retain some flexibility, i am mainly baffled by SAHP of school age children (especially if there's any worry about finances/independence from partner) who don't work at all.

lot of posters referring to gender pay gap and I actually believe main part of the gender pay gap is the choices women make as to the type of work we go into because it all seems far too coincidental that before kids come along the men seem to be the top earners.

There are careers like nursing and teaching which largely women do (obv some men but statistically less). These are professional jobs which are vital for society but if you happen to marry someone who say works in finance then it's unlikely you will ever out earn them.

Now, obviously for some people they are happy to work anyway for other reasons like career progression, pension and childcare being a relatively short term cost. But I can definitely understand that other women might feel differently and prefer to stay at home if they’re not making a net profit from working.

Yes - and this is an example of that:

However my work pension is £165.00 per month. So being a sahm cost me very dear.

If things go awry in a relationship or life happens then a SAHM has been financially disadvantaged beyond recovery for a very long time. I think a lot of women here want a better financial resilience for other women and it's rare for that to be achievable through being a SAHM.

it all seems far too coincidental that before kids come along the men seem to be the top earners.

Unfortunately a lot of industries are still dominated by men whose wives stayed at home so if you're applying for a job, female, under about 45 and have no children/one child you go in the reject pile. More men taking shared parental leave would massively help.

@Eyjafjallajokulldottir I'm not sure I get what you mean by this

"No dear, not jealousy, more like pity. I would hate to be with a partner who didn't think I was worth anything outside of the home.

See I can be goady too"

I was a sahm for 13 years from when my eldest was born until my youngest started secondary school. I worked before I had the kids and I work again now albeit part time to fit in with the kids (20 hrs pw). Why on earth would dh think I wasn't worth anything outside of the home?!

When my eldest was 5 I started volunteering weekly. Got my 10 year service recently. So I don't really count those years as waste, although you seem to.

I am fascinated by Shani Orgad’s book “Heading Home”. It looks at exactly how SAHMing is positioned as a free choice made out of thin air that “suits us” but in reality is heavily embedded in patriarchy/gender relations.

The key questions for me are -

1. How do so many families end up in situations where “DH just earns way more than me”? What’s going on for this to be the case? What’s going on in homes, families, EYFS, KS1 through to A levels - for example - that’s determining that Harry and Ahmed and Ravi and John are ending up being 30 something with always higher earning power than Emily-Mae, Divya, Roshana and Lilly? For all the many many households where “DH just earns so much more than me” - are these all tiny microscopic free choice coincidences? To me this is a fundamental part of the question.

1. Second - in households that have somehow ended up with “DH just earns way more than me” - what’s going on there - at home, school or elsewhere” that will either shift or perpetuate this to the next generation? Will the John and Emily-Mae growing up somehow also slot into “DH just earns so much more than me in 2 or 3 decades?” What’s determining the potentials, possibilities, ambitions of John and Emily-Mae to be different?

1. What are the unequal impacts of the “they are only little for so long”? How is it that this is such an emotive factor for mothers but not for fathers? It’s the same baby after all, having the same littledom. This is never a free choice question - it’s fascinatingly and complexly rooted in social structuring.

1. The old argument of “childcare costs would wipe out the extra salary” - places zero value on women’s career continuity, skills progression, CV validity, women’s ambitions or futures. It’s naively thought of as money in money out. A persons entire skill set, prospects, career trajectory - what about all of that?

But if I had to choose one of these things to be truly baffled by it’s ultimately 1 and 2. How is it that largely we are coming to these situations where “DH just earns five times what I do”? And no - it’s not about anecdotes of what your specific position is in your work - my question is about the broader patterns of trends in the data around men’s attainments and women’s - from school till later - and what causes these large scale trends to be quite so skewed.

It is never a free floating choice.

Sometimes I wonder if they are jealous, maybe they feel guilt at having to go to work, maybe they can't afford to be a SAHM. And it makes them feel better to tear others down. I understand both sides, there are good and bad things about staying at home and working, and as mothers we will sadly always be judged, whatever we do. I am lucky enough to have family who provide childcare, meaning i can work part time and still get to spend a lot of time with my daughter. On the days I'm working, I miss her and want want be at home. On the days I'm at home I miss adult conversation, often feel stressed by the end and want to go back to work for a break from her!

Yes all those silly working class women choosing to go into childcare, care work, catering, cleaning and retail and not get proper jobs like middle class men.

@Flossing. It’s not disdain. It’s a different choice. Some women want more from life than being a wife and mother. Some don’t. I would absolutely hate not being independent- other women seem happy with that as they value staying at home with kids more. They probably think I’m neglecting my kids by using childcare/working - I don’t really care what they think. Why would their opinion matter to me?

Why would anyone assume that it’s jealousy? I can say that it’s a positive choice to work and that I love my career. I acknowledge that I’m one of these typical middle class mums with a career rather than a job but I work bloody hard and am good at what I do. I probably work with some of the husbands of these SAHMs who do “important” jobs.

It always seems to be SAHMs who are so defensive. Why do they care if other anonymous women don’t rate/ value their choice?

@ChristmasShearwater all those kind of replies made me shudder too. So transparent what they're doing.

I don’t think it’s necessarily people being unpleasant but I feel there’s a lot of judgement on here and in reality. Although there are often comments “what will you do when he leaves?”.

Everyone saying about it’s not the woman’s salary that should solely cover childcare. You’re right, it shouldn’t be but you’d still be losing money as a household each month through childcare.

People saying about men earning more. I don’t understand why that’s an issue if it’s a fact. My husband earns three times more than I would even before children. What’s the issue?

If a woman wants a career and career progression, that’s fine but it’s not for everyone. I decided even before children that I wanted a job I could walk away from at the end of the day (previously been in a high pressure role). It’s not for everyone.

It isn’t something you can always plan for either…we didn’t predict twins. Obviously, the cost of childcare then doubles. Some people say you should plan for them when deciding to start a family because “there’s always a chance”. There’s a chance of quintuplets, people rarely plan for those!

DH and I are a team. We don’t see it as he’s keeping me. I have contributed a lot financially in the past and I contribute in other ways now.

I think certain users (not everyone) sometimes struggle to accept other people’s opinions and points of view. Instead, they think they’re living life right and others are wrong.

I think it’s true there is an element of jealousy

Lol ok then

I also wish someone would tell my DC that, as a working parent, I'm not raising them and maybe they will finally stop bugging me for snacks all the damn time.

Back in the real world, I don't care a bit about what other people do, only my own family which functions just fine. I'm ambitious so taking years off work just wasn't an option for me and I'm very comfortable with that decision. I just wish SAHM's could be comfortable enough with their own decisions to stop claiming that everyone judges them when in reality no one cares about what you or me or wee Mary down the street does.

There are fewer comments against SAHMs than defensive threads like these. For what it’s worth, it is ridiculous when people try and equate being a SAHM with working parents. Being a SAHP is nothing like as demanding as being a working parent.

I actually think it’s easier to work when kids aren’t at school- nursery hours way better than school hrs- what the hell do you do with children in the holidays and after 3pm if you aren’t paying for care and working?

Forgot to say that DH and I salary difference isn’t due to gender, etc. DH is a lot older than me so he’s had chance to establish his career more whereas I wanted to start a family when I was still young.

As long as the SAHM is happy, who cares 🤷🏻‍♀️

I think being a sahm is a lovely choice but not one I would ever take. Firstly I think of mine an children’s future. I need to work so that if anything happened to my husband eg, divorce or death then I would have the job security and I could carry on paying our mortgage and contributing. Plus I would then not need to have to get a job after this trauma. Also I want a pension that I have earned. I want financial independence. My choices and my husband’s work well for our family.
Also I personally do not want to stay home. I don’t enjoy it, it’s lonely when the children are at school. There is not enough satisfaction for me in housework or life admin. People are different but I think as long as you don’t need to rely on anyone financially and you could take over the working then yes be a sahm. I however do not want to take the risk in losing my job to not be able to get another one. That is my choice.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

I actually think it’s easier to work when kids aren’t at school- nursery hours way better than school hrs- what the hell do you do with children in the holidays and after 3pm if you aren’t paying for care and working?

Yeah I agree with this. Lots of people seem to think ah be fine when they start school, and it is in the way that wraparound care if you are fortunate enough to have it is cheaper- but far more weeks off school a year than annual leave allowance is savage.

@sst1234
I think everyone’s circumstances are different. 6 month old twins during lockdown was challenging…

I've witnessed the jealous rant about SAHMs from a parent at school - who obviously thought I worked! Awkward.😂